ClioSport.net

Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Power+Torque Graphs for ClioTurbo.





Hello after messing with a few on net programs Ive come up with power + torque curves for the Clioturbo All calculations where done with figures from Capts posts
- VE was taken from Capts posts.
- Compressor effiency was set at 70% most of the time but the last few rev points, effiency was dropped to about 65%.
-Ambient Air Temp was set at 30 degrees C.
-Boost curve follows the Red line shown in the pic below (again from Capts posts).

http://home.clara.net/manch/ClioTurbo/captcfm.jpg
-Intercooler effiency was set at 75%.

The power/torque + boost curves are shown below.

http://home.clara.net/manch/ClioTurbo/Maxpowergraph.jpg

Max Power - 337 Bhp@6500rpm
Max Torque - 334 ib/ft@4500rpm

Had fun messing with the calculations and stuff. If your reading this Capt does it look correct?, i used some online calculators to find some of these figures.

Chun.
 


Hi Chun, nice work. !

looks fine.

the only thing to remember is that the figures are theoretical, accuarate mostly.. but the main factors are-

how much can the engine stand ?

how much can the gearbox and drive stand ?

how much can the driver stand ?

the heat generated by the compression (and removing it)

the dynamic compression ratio achieved and the ability to prevent knock..

but, generally, it will be bloody frighteningly quick

Joe
 


Those power and torque figures are for your car only I think I wouldnt go much over 280Bhp on mine. Mainly because there was that TB + NOS car with 288Bhp. What really worrys me is the massive amounts of torque the engine produces. This site I found can also tell you theoretical (spelling) before and after intercooler temps + dynamic compression ratio. Im not really sure how theory compares to real world application.

Chun.
 
  CTR EK9 turbo


Guys: what would be the chance of someone (like me) getting this upgrade in the distant future? (when ive finished my masters and got a full time job etc.) Man-chun - have you bought the parts from capn? are you fitting them yourself? What im asking is, i know youve only sold 4, but in the future, would you still be in the business to produce more kits for power-hungry folk like me in the future?
 


What sort of plans do you have for the clutch and gearbox as these are going to be under immense strain and will go probably sooner rather than later???
 


Simon.. If I can get 10 orders I can get another batch of units from abroad.

but, would need the 10 definite orders


Adam, the gearbox is fine if in good condition to start with... the cltch ill need uprating.. but I have access to the official turbo clutches.. worst case is find one from ap that both fits, and will take the power..

Joe
 


on this subject id definately be interested in obtaining one. What sort of price would I be looking at the chuck one on a Clio Cup? Have to admit that im no mechanic so a breif explanation of what would be needed would also be appreciated!

Thanks

Pete
 


Nice figures but a little unrealistic...
Why i hear you all cry?
Cos the turbos only good for around 280bhp before it becomes inefficient...
How do i know this?
Cos my Scoob is fitted with a TD04 turbo thats why and after 280bhp its worth going for something a little bigger like a td05 or a vf series turbo for more power
Also would like to know what size injectors your going to be running with this turbo?? and one of the downsides to having a turbo is you will have to keep an eye on things like the Exhaust gas temp etc otherwise you could have some minor engine problems
Torque is going to be a little bit of a problem possably, its going to put alot of strain on the engine and your transmission, clutch etc, so an uprated organic clutch could be in order to cope with the extra power

Just a few things to keep you occupied

Tony

(ps, you should really go for the TD04-L turbo, suppose to be better even though it is a hybrid )
 


Joe,

Can I ask what you are doing regarding inlet cooling.? Are you going to use intercooler, chargecooler or water injection?

And what boost will you be running?

I asume you have also found a suitable headgasket to cope with the boost pressure.?

Last question!!! What will your final compression ratio be?
 


TB1 - The calculations where done with the turbo effiency at around 70%-65%. Im also assuming the scooby engine without turbo would not be making the power of the 172 engine?. I dont really know if the figures are realistic at all, but they are all solid theory figures.
BarryD - I think Capt is planning to use a intercooler of some sort. Other than that I cant tell you which one and stuff, in the calculations above I used a intercooler with 75% effiency.

Cheers,

Chun.
 


BarryD, I think Capt might be testing to destruction so he can find whats going to break or not Maybe I heard wrong hehe. If we say the upper limit of the dynamic compression ratio is 16:1 then the final compression ratio would depend on what max boost pressure you would want to run on your car.

Chun.
 


Man,
I see your point, unfortunately the TD04 isnt capable of running that sort of boost pressure (ie much over 22psi) so your figures are a little out

As far as a scooby engine is concerned, it was designed for the turbo, the turbo will therefore enhance its power etc (so it doesnt need much power to start with ) but you may find that your engine cannot take much more than 8 or 9 psi, you dont know until you try it really

Tony
 


Yeah thats true, atm its all theory. But with lower compression pistons and the renault developed parts I dont think 250 Bhp (I Hope ) would be a problem. The graph at the top was a what in theory the power of the clio would be with turbo + engine sorted. 330 would be too mad anyway And the dynamic compression is too high I think max boost would be 16 psi with a compression ratio of 8.5:1 giving a max dynamic compression ratio of around 16:1. I hope 16psi is more than enough for what power figure I want in my head

Chun.
 


And btw my figures are fine Just the compression map gave me the wrong figures hehe. I did think 29 psi was a little mad hehe.

Cheers,

Chun.
 


TB1 and BarryD..



the turbo IS designed for this engine.. there is already an F4R variant with Turbo...

regarding the scooby.. you may well be correct.. but the exhaust turbine on the td04 is certainly capable of flowing the required cfm within its safe operating limit. The difference is in the compressor housing and turbine wheel (re the codes) the 18T shown in Chuns image is certainly capable of flowing the capacity.. ie - manufacturers figures.. the amount of boost required to produce a given increase is directly proportional to VE.. the scooby probably has nowhere near the VE of the later renault f4r units.. so you cant compare boost / power from one to the other...

that map with the overlay shows MAX THEORETICAL boost.. I wont be using anything like that.. 22 is the top level intended..

regarding intercooling, I intend to use an air to air intercooler, a water cooled charge cooler is a posibility, but I dont think it will be required. the A to A should suffice.

regarding compression ratio, I am aiming for a compromise figure of 8.5 - 8.75:1 static. (14.5 - 16:1 dynamic)

regarding headgasket, the standard f4r 760 turbo gasket is fine. we will run another 10 degrees on the tightening angle too. (the gasket is a superb tri-material construction)

you have to remember, there was never a 16v turbo unit produced by renault in the latter years, the 172 is an F4R unit, the Aventime 2ltr Turbo is also F4R.. I am not starting from scratch, mr reno has done most of the work for me

re - exhaust temps etc. That is not a problem, the EGT thermocouples will read to both a gauge and the modded management system.. possible overtemp warnings for failsafe at 1700 degrees.



Joe.... have fun..
 


Joe,
i take it your changing your injectors, fuel pump etc?
I know for a fact that in Mans case, 250bhp wont be a problem with a TD04 turbo, but the best one that has been found to work with scoobs is the TD04-L as it gave better spool up and is capable of running nearer 300bhp
The major down side to this turbo is that its damn small.... that does actually restrict you to the sort of power its capable of (look at the Escort Cosworths towards the end run, they ran a smaller unit but it wasnt capable of much over 280bhp, not due to the engine which was capable of more power but to the turbos size compared with the older models and bigger but laggier turbos).
There are cars out there that run TD04s with bigger power (3000GT for instance) but having 2 of these takes alot of the pressure off and both can run at an optimum without reaching their limits (but bigger turbos are good for bigger power )
The TD04 is a very reliable unit though and smooth delivery due to the smaller size is welcomed and ive not known one of these on an impreza blow (nor a TD05 unit either ) so with a proven track record reliability wont be an issue!

Joe, also regarding scoob engines.... there are a few limited STi models (the type RA v-ltds) which run a bigger (quite a lot bigger) vf series turbo, and in standard form this engine is capable of running 1.7bar of boost safely..... (the phase 2 engine is better than the phase 1 in this instance ) but who would want that sort of power?

Tony
 


TB1 I think what Jow was saying the TD04-18T has a different compressor housing and compressor wheel to the standard TD04. This compressor housing + wheel would give you a peak figure of 29 psi and drop of to 21-20 psi and all staying in the effiency of the turbo. Now I took this compressor map and worked out a power figure that are within the limits of the turbo. So if the engine ,transmission can take it the turbo can produce that type of power. So the TD04-18T is all we need turbo wise. Changing to a TD04-L I assume is a turbo that has a different turbine housing which would require a completely turbo?. At the momemt our turbos are TD04-10T, and to change to the 18T a simply (from what Capt said ) change of compressor housig and compressor wheel. I think and hope the standard turbo injectors provide enough fuel for 250 Bhp

Cheers,

Chun.
 


Also say a TD04 that produced 280Bhp max on the scooby doesnt mean it would limit the 172 engine to 280Bhp. A TD04 will flow a certain CFM rating no matter which car it was on. Now because the scooby engine would have a different Volumetric Effiency to the 172 engine. Im assuming its lower cause its proberly not in a high state of tune without the turbo. So assuming that the 172 does have a higher VE then the scooby engine the standard TD04 would produce higher BHP figures on the 172 engine than the scooby engine.

Cheers,

Chun.
 


Also to avoid confusion when im talking about scooby engines im talking about the standard uk scoob engine which you have?. And not the Sti engine?.

Chun.
 


Hi Tony (TB1)

there will definitely be an upper limit of the exhaust turbine (usually keeping it to within max rpm for the bearing cartridge is the problem )

re injectors / fuel pump...

the turbo injectors are already higher flow at a lower pressure than the 172 ones. and the fuel presuure will be adjusted from 3.5 to 4.5 bar.

the extra fueling above this (if needed) can be supplied by either the addition of a complete injector rail to the manifold.. or the use of a downstream injector supplied from a pwm source.

It is not easy to add a boost pressure adjuster in this vehicle.. but it can be done.. I intent to suck it n see ..

the only way to determine flow without manufacturers figures is to measure the injector dwell period and fuel pressure at max flow and calculate the reserve... this is more of a minor issue in the great scheme of things.

theoretical and practical are often only mildly related lol.. when the unit goes on the dyno, most of these questions will be answered..

Joe
 


Looks like it could be quite interesting when completed but i still see some problems with putting the power down on a front wheel drive car as torque steer can make the car undrivable (esp in the wet )

Man, having checked and have now found that the std turbo on MY97 onwards is actually a TD04-19T, it is good for big power as the engine is only running lowish boost (11psi in most cases) so upping the power and running higher isnt a problem but it looks like a turbod clio will be a tyre muncher no matter what

Tony
 


Hi Tony.

there will come a limit where the chassis isnt cpapable of handling the power.. probably before the mechanicals ..

the key to turbo charging (IMHO) is to make the delivery controllable through proportional boost control. (And possibly gear position sensors )

as for munching tyres... lol.. isnt that part of the fun if you use the available power

the 4 wheel drive conversion is well into development too.... but thats for next year !.

Joe
 


Joe,

Like it!

One thing (again!!!), the biggest problem I found was lack of space for an intercooler (air to air), so I was going to opt for a chargecooler. That way I would only needed to find a space for the cooler its self (custom made from Pace), the pump (small), and mount a pre-rad (smaller than an intercooler) somewhere in the front bumper.

Im not to sure what you have space-wise, in the engine bay of a 172. But if its anything like the 16v!!!!

The chargecooler would also alow you to maintain a constant chargetemp around the optimum 30degC inlet temp.

Or, N02 is good at keeping in-cylinder temps low!!!

I wasnt aware that the block was designed to run a turbo, that makes things alot easier. And with 22psi (about 1.5 bar) you should see a masive increase in power. I was predicting around 260bhp in my 16v at that boost. Then once Id had a cams made up, and the head ported and gas flowed I was looking for over 300.
 


Hiya Barry m8

I dont plan on removing vvt, but I did consider it... it may be possible to do a hybrid with 172 inlet cam with the phasing device and the f4r turbo exhaust cam.. I need to get figures for the turbo cam though (I have the 172)

the vvt only seems to effect the idle, but that is still nice to have if a different cam profile was selected.

Yes, the F4R would appear to be designed for turbocharging from the outset.. and indeed, as reno have now released the Aventime 2ltr Turbo with the F4R760 and 761 units.. life is a lot simpler. Even on the 172 block all the castings are there for oil feed and return..

the best bit is... at the bottom of the block, there are four small oil spray pipes directed up the bores under the piston for added lubrication and increased cooling.. WOW !!.. they certainly thought about this unit going onto greater and better things.

As for charge cooling, I would agree with you.. the 172 bumper at the front has quite a lot of air behind it (space ) so I will see what space I have with it removed.. the air to water to air is a nice idea though, just the added complication of water storage and pumping. I will look into it.

Joe.
 


The phase 1 and 2 16v clios also had under piston oil cooling via the oil jets. Something the Renault 5 turbo needed badly.!!!

Speaking from comments I have read on the Supra owners club BBS, the later VVTi Twin turbo Supras are alot harder to tune than the non-VVTi cars (like mine), and alot of folk tent to revert back to the non-VVTi setup.

Just thought Id mention that, might be worth investigating!
 


TB1 I was actually thinking of traction control for the car wihen the turbo kit gos on Racelogic with adjustment and lanch control It should then give me a better chance with putting down 200-250 Bhp depending on boost hehe.

Chun.
 


Capt so your thining of removing the VVT?. Or just changing the cams for the turbo exhaust cams?. If so how much are these cams?

Cheers,

Chun.
 


Top