probably most common question asked.. please help 172 / 182?

[sertac]

hey guys im out in the market at the moment looking for a 172 or a 182... I live in Australia and you can pick a 172 up for about $5000 were as the 182 start from $10000.
the question I have is... is it really worth spending double the money to get myself into a 182??
Does the 182 truly perform a much better car in terms of handling and performance??
I also know that the 172 is lighter.. does this mean that it is quicker although the 182 has 10 or hp??
sorry if these questions sound stupid but I need to know if I should spend the extra 5grand on a 182...
My main focus is handling and speed....
Thanks guys

 

[Chip-mk1]

VERY brief summary of the range
Ph1 172
Ph2 172
Ph2 172 cup
Ph2 182
Trophy

Thats the only significant variants really

Ph2 172 and a Ph2 182 are all but indentical, the differences (other than colour choice) as so minor that you really will NOT notice them at all when driving.


Given the price difference you have mentioned, I would go for a Ph2 172 assuming that is what you are saying is half the price of a 182.

Ph1 172 is obviously a lot more dated looking, and the interior isnt very pleasant to be blunt, but they do still also drive exactly the same.

Ph2 cup has some very minor handling upgrades but is mainly just a cheaper version to be used as a base for motorsport, so has stuff like cloth interior as if you were buying one to build a race car you bin the interior anyway so no point having leather, also MOST (but not all) 172 cups had no aircon.

 

[Harbinger]

Plus you'll find the Exhausts on the 172 are half the price of the 182, when they rot off as they will do. Cup is cheaper for Belts as no AC.

Other than that as Chip said, no major difference you'll notice unless you had one for years and years, Trophy is something else but UK only I think.

 

[sertac]

Thanks guys... the next question I have... if I wanted to get the Clio over 220hp by keeping it N/A what would be the cheapest mods that could be done..

 

[Chip-mk1]

Thanks guys... the next question I have... if I wanted to get the Clio over 220hp by keeping it N/A what would be the cheapest mods that could be done..

220bhp N/A needs really to be:
Forged high comp engine
uprated valves
hotter cams
uprated clutch
diff'd gearbox
throttle bodies
etc
etc


In the UK I'd expect to spend about 10K pounds to do that to a good standard.


I really wouldnt receomend N/A tuning one of these engines unless you are racing, its a lot of money for a small gain.

 

[Harbinger]

A Lot, ITB's / RS2 if available out there, Remap, Cams, Decat for starts would get near 200, 220 is a big ask on NA.

 

[Harbinger]

In other words, Turbo / Charge it, similar cost really but much more worth while.

 

[sertac]

hmmm you see that puts thoughts in my mind.... because you can also pick up a megane 225 here for 10k.. I just like the fact of a 172 / 182 smaller, lighter = better handling??
correct me if I am wrong..
would you guys chose a 225 megane over a clio any day?

 

[Darren S]

$10k for a 182? Jesus - you can buy mine for that!

As others have said - in real-world situations, there's hardly anything between the range. That said - the 172 Cup had a 90kg weight saving, if I remember correctly, over the standard Ph2 172. That alone is a significant reduction and I bet there are hardly any 172 Cup's over in Oz, are there?

​D.

 

[LiamR172]

Going from a ph2 172 into a megane R26 230... for outright fun the clio is better.

The clio isnt much slower off the line, maybe a bit quicker if anything but higher up the gears/speed the megane will pull away.

Why not get a knackered 172 and a megane 225 engine and turbo the clio?

 

[sertac]

yeah I think I have my soul sold to a 172.... here in Australia the parts for a Renault are very expensive.... and very hard to find... so if I was up for turbo it would cost me heaps of money as well... Do they have turbo kits up in the U.K? for a 172?
And Darren to answer you question bud they don't have 172 cups here they have
phase 1 172
phase 2 172
182
182 cup
182 cup F1

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes you can buy turbo kits.
FAR cheaper than a decent itb build.

 

[sertac]

with the turbo kits on the 172. can you still use stock internals..??
also can you get pre mapped ecu's for the turbo kit. because it will be very hard finding a decent performance tuner for a custom turbo kit installation for a 172 here...
and what sort of power will the clio make? 240hp?

 

[Chip-mk1]

240 you can do on a totally stock engine no problem, if you decompress it you can get to about 280, after that though the rods are on borrowed time and the pistons arent ideal.

Just fit an ECU that you can get mapped near you, Autronic or Motec or whatever.

 

[sertac]

and when we talk 240hp are we talking Wheel horsepower? or at the fly?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Flywheel.

If you want 220 N/A at the wheels you will need a £20K budget and to rebuild every couple dozen hours or so of comeptition use.

 

[welshname]

Boosted you can do 280 on standard internals? Never realised the engine was good for that kind of power.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Boosted you can do 280 on standard internals? Never realised the engine was good for that kind of power.

Decompressed yes.
Need to be a bit careful about how you let the torque be delivered though as the rods dont like a lot of torque, for reliability I'd aim to keep the torque at 250-260ish personally.

At about 300lbft I bent standard rods very badly.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Ph2 cup has some very minor handling upgrades but is mainly just a cheaper version to be used as a base for motorsport, so has stuff like cloth interior as if you were buying one to build a race car you bin the interior anyway so no point having leather, also MOST (but not all) 172 cups had no aircon.

And no ABS, and no xenon's or headlight washers

 

[Chip-mk1]

And no ABS, and no xenon's or headlight washers

Yeah those all fell under the "just a cheaper version to be used as a base" bit...

 

[McGherkin]

At about 300lbft I bent standard rods very badly.

...And even then it still went like s**t off a shovel!

 

[Chip-mk1]

...And even then it still went like s**t off a shovel!

LOL, yeah it was amazing how well it went with the bent rods in it, CR was about 7:1 on lowest cylinder and 10:1 on the highest, and still went like hell, lol.

 

[Cup_Phil]

ABS removal was more for the weight loss than a cost saving exercise.

1020kg vs 1100kg.
80kg less makes them a better starting point for a track car

 

[Darren S]

Decompressed yes.
Need to be a bit careful about how you let the torque be delivered though as the rods dont like a lot of torque, for reliability I'd aim to keep the torque at 250-260ish personally.

At about 300lbft I bent standard rods very badly.

Is that why supercharging can be favoured over turbocharging on these engine? That it doesn't deliver all the torque on the traditional one hit?

Cheers,
​D.

 

[Chip-mk1]

ABS removal was more for the weight loss than a cost saving exercise.

1020kg vs 1100kg.
80kg less makes them a better starting point for a track car

When building a race car you remove the whole braking system off either of them anyway and replace with a proper pedal box, so any weight saved is leveled at that point anyway but the cost saved by buying a car without the ABS isnt

 

[Darren S]

yeah I think I have my soul sold to a 172.... here in Australia the parts for a Renault are very expensive.... and very hard to find... so if I was up for turbo it would cost me heaps of money as well... Do they have turbo kits up in the U.K? for a 172? And Darren to answer you question bud they don't have 172 cups here they have phase 1 172 phase 2 172 182 182 cup 182 cup F1

I'm sensing a very good aftermarket Reno breakers business, exporting to Australia here!

​D.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Is that why supercharging can be favoured over turbocharging on these engine? That it doesn't deliver all the torque on the traditional one hit?

Cheers,
​D.

The turbo doesnt need to either, but the turbo gives you the option for a big midrange torque increase as you can add extra boost at that point, but with a supercharger you cant really, whatever the charger is geared for it does everywhere, where as the turbo you have control.

So on these two graphs for example, both from a turbo car, you can see the difference in peak torque from utilising this opportunity or not, where as on a centrifugal charger install, you would only be able to achieve the lower peak torque (red) one:

A turbo doesnt HAVE to strain the rods more, but it does give you the opportunity to do so if you wish!

 

[Harbinger]

That's a mental increase over 1000RPM!

 

[Goodj]

If you want a big power, front-dragger hatch, surely something JDM would be a better bet?

​But, that said, Clio's have an appeal of their own.

Mind, if I lived in Aus, I'd have a Commodore.....in Tander 2010 livery.

 

[Chip-mk1]

That's a mental increase over 1000RPM!

Thats why its so important to have throttle angle controlling the boost IMHO.

Those graphs are both my car, green on is at full throttle, red one is at 3/4 throttle

And at half throttle it pretends its an ITB car, lol:

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you want a big power, front-dragger hatch, surely something JDM would be a better bet?

Yeah if you want big power the honda platform is SO much better!

 

[Harbinger]

Need to get My 7 RR'd, I'd love to know what it's doing now it's been a long time since, Standard Cossie lump, Turbo is TurboT one but meant as a direct replacement rather than an uprated one, monster intercooler, Injectors, Fuel Pump, Polished and Ported, made 260 back in 2010.

Did plan on a rebuild with Forged internals and to aim for 1.2 Bar Boost but wife wants a baby now so looks like it'll be a while, would love to hit 300BHP @ around 4500RPM, weighing in @ 645Kg's would be pretty damn Epic, but then there's the need for thicker rear wheel and tyre money, a diff, a clutch, the list goes on and on, buy one thing and you need to buy another.....

 

[dalealtham1]

yeah I think I have my soul sold to a 172.... here in Australia the parts for a Renault are very expensive.... and very hard to find... so if I was up for turbo it would cost me heaps of money as well... Do they have turbo kits up in the U.K? for a 172?
And Darren to answer you question bud they don't have 172 cups here they have
phase 1 172
phase 2 172
182
182 cup
182 cup F1

​Speak to andyrg on here. He will do you a kit ;-)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Need to get My 7 RR'd, I'd love to know what it's doing now it's been a long time since, Standard Cossie lump, Turbo is TurboT one but meant as a direct replacement rather than an uprated one, monster intercooler, Injectors, Fuel Pump, Polished and Ported, made 260 back in 2010.

Did plan on a rebuild with Forged internals and to aim for 1.2 Bar Boost but wife wants a baby now so looks like it'll be a while, would love to hit 300BHP @ around 4500RPM, weighing in @ 645Kg's would be pretty damn Epic, but then there's the need for thicker rear wheel and tyre money, a diff, a clutch, the list goes on and on, buy one thing and you need to buy another.....

Do you mean YB cossie lump?

If so, standard internals are very happy at 500bhp.

 

[Harbinger]

Do you mean YB cossie lump?

If so, standard internals are very happy at 500bhp.

Yes it is, don't feel confident without them, given I've had so much invested in the car and most of it would come apart at the time just seems worth it, I know someone with a Sierra @ 400 and has been living with it for years but had so much aggro with engines ( C20 LET ) I personally won't take the boost up without doing this. I know the VX lump is weak and was my mistake but was so costly for me ( couldn't get a Saab engine at the time )

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes it is, don't feel confident without them, given I've had so much invested in the car and most of it would come apart at the time just seems worth it, I know someone with a Sierra @ 400 and has been living with it for years but had so much aggro with engines ( C20 LET ) I personally won't take the boost up without doing this. I know the VX lump is weak and was my mistake but was so costly for me ( couldn't get a Saab engine at the time )

Porkie's standard rods in his old sierra engine lasted his abuse (a LOT of trackdays driven HARD) at 605bhp

They are NOTHING like C20LET ones mate, totally different league, and are better than a lot of the cheap forged rods people fit as upgrades on other engines, same for the crank.

Pistons are good for 500 ish, and at 400 wont even bat an eyelid.

 

[sertac]

how much are decent turbo kits in the uk?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Have a look on the engine dynamics website.