PTFE Gasket received-PICS!

[Mark One]

I bought this following on from a thread that was posted the other day.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=262717&highlight=PTFE#

Thought to myself that at least its something to do before i go back to uni and it'll be an interesting experiment.

I Haggled a bit on this ebay listing: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI....m=250206099859&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=015

Got it for £20 posted. EBAY SELLER

shemtek_racing Received this morning to find this was actually made by a 3 year old with tin snips.

This has never, never been anywhere near a CNC machine. £20 is daylight robbery and this is going back. It's pants. You couldnt fit this to a car, the ports are all different sizes and shapes so any gains you might make are lost due to bad fluid flow. It's not even flat!
Here are the pics. I've taken a lot to try and show just how bad it really is.

 

[Mikey197]

That is shockingly shite. lol. I would send it back with a nice letter asking did they make it with their eyes closed.

 

[Mark One]

That is shockingly s**te. lol. I would send it back with a nice letter asking did they make it with their eyes closed.

glad you agree. It's not the kind of thing that should be fitted to any car

 

[Fred@BTM]

thats terrible! but the shocking thing is i've seen inlet manifolds that have been apparently port matched that look like that!

 

[Mark One]

bump this. everyone needs to be warned

 

[Pettsi]

Blimey, that looks awful!

 

[Dash]

 

[mattjk]

It looks quite thick i would be suprised if the plenum fitted onto that after. Doesnt seem to bad in my opinion but could just be the pics that doesnt show it that well.

 

[Beef-Mc]

What a waste of twenty quid! Hope you get your money back!

 

[BSC 182]

OMG look at the state of it

 

[en035]

you bit the bullet, sorry m8 horrible quality.

 

[BRUN]

have you had any response from them ?

 

[jayxx83]

well someone had to take the bait. hope you get it sorted mate.

 

[Daverb]

Hehehehehe

Are you going to buy one of these resisters that make your car faster for your next trick?

 

[Mark One]

Hehehehehe

Are you going to buy one of these resisters that make your car faster for your next trick?

Thanks for that daverb. Do you write your own material? :rasp:

 

[hill_power_clio]

Just a point I am looking to get these lazer machined and dont want people moaning about mine not being flat...

It will go flat when you bolt it up. Cheers

 

[MRBILLYUK]

Jesus . Looks like its been cut out with a Stanley knife , a blunt one at that .

Hope you get your money back mate . £20 , it's worth more like 20p .

 

[Mark One]

Developments in returning this gasket

I sent:
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]Hi, I received the PTFE gasket very quickly thankyou.
I'd like to organise the return and refund of this item as the quality is not really acceptable. None of the ports are quite right, holes are poorly drilled and one of the holes has clearly been made bigger with a stanley knife. This hole has started to crack toward the edge of the gasket. Although it may reduce manifold temperatures any gains made will be lost due to the way the ports have been cut on this gasket. In my opinion this is not the kind of thing that can be made without the use of CNC.
Please send a return address and I'll pay the postage and ship it monday. Would you agree to refund the £20 if I did this?
Many thanks,
Mark Underwood


[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]shemtek_racing reply

[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Hi;

Thanks for your comments but before issuing a refund can I just make a few comments for your perusal...

..firstly the listing did not state the gasket would be machined out. As you can see we have sold these in the past with happy customers when they have been cut by hand. Obviously this isn't ideal for us and takes a lot of time and effort to produce (have you tried working with PTFE it is difficult) and rest assured your just hasn't been knocked up in a couple of minutes. I realise this doesn't give the cleanest looking finish but shouldn't affect performance.

One of the location holes was not opened up with a stanley knife, that was actually a slip of the drill bit but again doesn't affect fitting or performance.

Further to this the 172 inlet manifold has smaller ports than the gasket - so how can the port sizes (as long as they aren't smaller) affect the performance again? This is the reason the 172 manifolds do get bored out and why things are get 'gasket matched'.

NB: PTFE does not crack so I don't see how this could have happened??

I'll look forward to receiving your reply and thanks for offering to pay the rtn postage but would just like to discuss this matter first.

Many Thanks

S_R
[/FONT]

I've replied


Thanks for your quick reply.
The listing did not state that the gasket would be machined, but then the photo didn't clearly show that the quality was to this standard.
I have studied Fluid mechanics. If flow encounters an expansion or a contraction within a network, serious efficiency losses are made (especially at this gasket thickness).
I can only comment on this particular gasket. This is just not the kind of thing that any real enthusiast would fit to a car. There is different distances from the location holes to the ports in every case. This means the chances of it sitting correctly and not obstructing flow are slim.
With regards to the crack: It is in the hole that you say the drill slipped on. It has a split there that is 50% through the depth of the gasket and nearly reached the edge of the material.
I am perfectly willing to discuss this with you but I'm afraid I'll still not want to fit this to any car.
Many thanks,
Mark



I think I'll get the cash back but i just cannot believe they are disputing it!

 

[White16valver]

Trading Standards.

Not fit for purpose lol

 

[Christopher]

that's a quality product! hmm

 

[Peperami]

You bought a cheap performance part off ebay and thought it would be of decent quality?

 

[Big Bob]

..firstly the listing did not state the gasket would be machined out. As you can see we have sold these in the past with happy customers when they have been cut by hand. Obviously this isn't ideal for us and takes a lot of time and effort to produce (have you tried working with PTFE it is difficult) and rest assured your just hasn't been knocked up in a couple of minutes. I realise this doesn't give the cleanest looking finish but shouldn't affect performance.
^^^^ Quote

well it will affect performance if some of the ptfe strands detach from the gasket after being fitted and end up in the cylinders being burn't with the fuel this could cause massive damage what a tosser.

 

[Mark One]

[FONT=arial,sans-serif]S racing reply:

So did you expect a 3mm thick gasket to exactly fit your port sizes? Otherwise you should have always expected this problem of expansion?

Unless of course you were planning to exactly gasket match your head and inlet manifold?

The hole sizes are never going to be smaller so it wont obstruct flow and as all the drill holes line up with an OE gasket so fitting should be simple.

S_R

My reply:

[/FONT][FONT=arial,sans-serif]Thanks for a quick reply.
Yes, If you are going to have a gasket as thick as 3mm (which I personally think is a good thickness for it) then it needs to be fairly well matched. I'm not expecting perfection but the standard of this gasket is not what I was expecting im afraid. It's not about flow obstruction, it's Fluid momentum loss that needs to be considered. A gasket larger or smaller than the port size will cause this.
Thanks,
Mark

I think hes getting a little touchy about this? He's annoyed I'm not backing down. Knob
[/FONT]

 

[Mark One]

You bought a cheap performance part off ebay and thought it would be of decent quality?

TBH yes. Ebay users like me are not all crooks and morons you know.

 

[Peperami]

Lesson learned then.

 

[Mark One]

Lesson learned then.

lesson learned. Do not buy from shemtek racing. Thats what it come down to matey

 

[ben_p]

get BenR to write a reply. that would be fun LOL

 

[mattjk]

Point8/Mark

What happened in the end?

Would be interested myself in getting some thin sheets of PTFE and having a bash i think 3mm is to thick though.

 

[Mark One]

hi mate.
Got a refund in the end. The seller got really arsy though and said that it is a quality product and whether or not i liked it was irrelevant.
WHAT EVER HAPPENED TO CUSTOMER SERVICE

they refunded 15 of the £20inc postage

message after they received it follows:
[FONT=arial,sans-serif]
Good evening.

My colleague has refunded you a partial payment of £15.00 to your paypal account with a breakdown as follows...

£1.65 listing fees
£1.05 final value fee
£1.40 postage fee
£0.90 misc - wasted packaging, trip to P.O. etc.

Trust this is ok.

Upon receipt of your +ve feedback I will leave +ve with you.

Many Thanks

S_R



I regret to say that we have now both left positive feed back for eachother. The trouble with ebay is that people cannot leave negative feedback becuase the other party just leaves negative feedback to retaliate. They should have a system whereby neither party can see the feedback until both have submitted feedback.


As for the gasket. 3mm is pretty thick. Do not even think of buying from Shemtek racing BTW, from my convos with them, they have no idea about fluid flow though manifolds or quality manufacturing methods!
I would say 2mm is going to be optimum.
But rememeber if you make it the same size as an OE gasket you are going to make flow losses. The OE gasket is so thin that the manifold sits pretty much right on the head. With a 2mm gasket (OE size) you are going to have an expansion for 2mm. Expansions are almost as bad for flow as contractions. I would match the gasket to the inlet manifold if possible.
Alternatively a 1mm PTFE gasket would limit this problem, but I personally think more heat transfer would be the downside there.

[/FONT]

 

[Neil G]

BS

That's ebay for you though

 

[Mark One]

whatever you do. CNC it. it's the only way to get it done properly

 

[mattjk]

Mark that is most helpful thankyou

It is a shame that people have gotta be d**kheads these days ey?

So if I do have a pop at one - Which would just be for interest really I want to match it to the EXACT size of the inlet mani? 2mm for the win then?

I think the 172 would have issues with fitting a 2mm one but you should get away with it on the 182 hopefully...

EDIT: Just saw your latest post - Not possibly with a stanley and a steady hand then?

 

[Mark One]

BS

That's ebay for you though

I think ebay is a good invention, and actually the best business idea in the world (can you imagine owning that???? and just watching the mulah rollll in)

I do agree with you on some level though. It's a shame that a few w*nkers have to ruin it for the vast majority who are just trying to find good deals/rare items or make a few bob

 

[Mark One]

EDIT: Just saw your latest post - Not possibly with a stanley and a steady hand then?

Well, if you want to try it, it's down to you. I personally would wait for ktec/hillpower/gdi to bring out a cnc one.
If I was going to put this into production I would buy a 100% standard manifold and then match a CNC computer design to that.
Then I would manufacture it in bulk on CNC.

Give it a bash with a sharp stanley if your confident but make sure nothing is going to fall off it and burn in the cylinder

best of luck mate

 

[mattjk]

good point! Thanks for the advice big man

 

[Mark One]

let me know how it goes with your gasket. Get some pics of your handy work up too!
I was going to buy one of those really cheap digital temp readouts from maplin and put the sensor on the manifold to see if i was actually running cooler temps but obv didnt end up fitting the gasket!

 

[midge]

i bought a tb gasket from them for the hybrid, when it turned up it looked the saem as that, cut out by a toddler, havnt even tried to line it up e.t.c.

 

[Dash]

Are these water jet cut?

 

[mattjk]

let me know how it goes with your gasket. Get some pics of your handy work up too!
I was going to buy one of those really cheap digital temp readouts from maplin and put the sensor on the manifold to see if i was actually running cooler temps but obv didnt end up fitting the gasket!

Will do matey, think im gunna go for 2mm.