Recommendations for a track car

[Captain Hat]

I'm building a 172 Cup into a track car. My main priority is gonna be suspension and brake setup to start with (though I am easily distracted by shiny things) but I have no idea where to start. My goal is, obviously, improved handling. I plan to do most of the work myself; I've worked on other cars before, including a few very light grasstrack builds, but I've never done anything for a proper track before.

I'm on a bit of a budget at the moment, though it is potentially flexible if the right deal shows up. Should I be looking at coilovers straight away, or should I start with just stiffening the springs? If I go with just springs, is it a good idea to refresh the shocks straight away anyway? What brakes are good? Are braided brake lines worth it? What about polybushing the suspension arms? I have a ton of questions and I'm hoping you guys can give me at least some of the answers.

As far as I'm aware right now, coilovers are nice to have but not necessarily essential straight away; they can also be quite expensive, and vary widely in price. Which setups have a good reputation? Where should I buy from to get the best deal? Is anyone selling anything good? What should I watch for when buying second-hand suspension kits?

Thanks for any and all help you guys can give me.

 

[Bluebeard]

Have you done a track day in the car as it is?

What did you notice? What needs to improve?

 

[Darryl_1983]

Track pads, brake fluid and braided brake line, and a set of decent track tyres, I'd say are the most important.
I've done a track day with uprated fluid braided line and standard brembo pads, but you need to manage the temperature a lot more.

I ran cup dampers and eibach sportlines. With ns2r tyres.

Don't think you need anything else in a Clio. All the other stuff will make you quicker

 

[Captain Hat]

Have you done a track day in the car as it is?

What did you notice? What needs to improve?

I haven't taken it to the track yet and the suspension that is on the car is all stock and works well, but I need to replace the brake pads & discs anyway due to wear and here's the twist: I have a second Cup as my daily driver and I really need to replace my suspension on that. My plan is to essentially upgrade the track car as I strip the spares I need off it, and I want to start getting everything lined up so I don't make too many stupid impulse buys.

Track pads, brake fluid and braided brake line, and a set of decent track tyres, I'd say are the most important.
I've done a track day with uprated fluid braided line and standard brembo pads, but you need to manage the temperature a lot more.

I ran cup dampers and eibach sportlines. With ns2r tyres.

Don't think you need anything else in a Clio. All the other stuff will make you quicker

That's fair enough. There is also the hobbyist in me that desperately wants to upgrade the nuts off everything because Reasons but that's in conflict with my budget. So for starters you reckon just uprate the brake lines and pads? Do you have any more specific recommendations on which ones to go for? I probably need to replace the discs anyway- is it worth getting a sportier set?

 

[JB21]

I've just purchased these Mintex M1155's pads for £70. Not received them yet as lead time is around 30 days but they will do a job for you mate if you can wait the 30 days. Standard discs are fine as long as not cheapo ones and past there best. Fluid most, inc myself go for ATE TYP200, 1L should suffice. Get some decent track rubber and you'll be good to go.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302183925298?_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

 

[Potatoes]

I went out in mine standard and realised the following:

• My pads melted
• My brake fluid boiled
• My engine wasn't noisy

I installed new calipers, new pads (DS25000), steel braided lines and high boiling point fluid, I also removed the fog lights and put a cold airfeed through to the brakes. This solved the first 2 points.

I then installed a Fatty's induction kit, solving the third point.

Other issues from trackdays after I ruined my brakes: got 15 inch wheels and sticky rubber for grip, installed a rear anti-roll bar to decrease understeer, got sime adjustable dampers for grip (not installed yet as cup dampers are good).

I did this all gradually, as I did with my previous track car as you have to know what needs to be improved before improving it... I only feel comfirtable working that out for myself as everyone's preference and experience is different.

I would say brakes and tyres are the most important if you want o drive hard

 

[alistairolsen]

First build a decent foundation by refreshing the stuff thats worn out:

• Braided hoses (goodridge or HEL are decent, HEL have stainless ends)
  
• New fluid (decent DOT 4. Not ATE typ200, loads of folk have had issues with it)
  
• Brembo HC disks (@George@RTR_Parts is you man for these, you wont get quality disks for less)
  
• Strip and rebuild the calipers, the slider pins and bores are awful for going slack and if they are, replace the carriers and pins.
• Check and replace if necessary balljoints, track rods and track rod ends
• Replace rear axle bushes, wishbone and antirollbar bushes.
• Worth considering some replacement topmounts and given life/cost, I'd go spherical if not using on the road much.

After that, I'd get out on track and do a couple of days, as the car will be forgiving to drive and fairly capable and great fun.

As you get faster, you'll find you need better pads, but its £150 you can spend in a few months time rather than now.

Likewise you'll want to move to some better suspension. many people run Eibach or Cooksport springs with new OEM cup dampers, others move to coilovers. See if you can get out in a car on both.

The first stuff needs done to make the later stuff worthwhile, it will leave you a car with nicely greased fasteners which is easier to repair and upgrade, build familiarity with the car and make sure it's safe and you dont have any odd handling problems.

My own car is stripped and caged with buckets and so on and is still on cooksports and ran OEM pads on the last wet day, so you dont have to go nuts.

 

[Djw John]

What issues have you heard of with typ200 Al?

I agree with the above btw, make sure it's not gonna break down and then identify what you want to change for the next track day.

 

[alistairolsen]

What issues have you heard of with typ200 Al?

I agree with the above btw, make sure it's not gonna break down and then identify what you want to change for the next track day.

Its got odd compressibility specs and seems to cause issues with certain seals, specifically VAG clutch seals. I've gone away from using it and back to either decent 'normal' dot 4 or RBF and similar fluids.
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/cl-rc6-or-rc8.801305/

 

[Darryl_1983]

That's fair enough. There is also the hobbyist in me that desperately wants to upgrade the nuts off everything because Reasons but that's in conflict with my budget. So for starters you reckon just uprate the brake lines and pads? Do you have any more specific recommendations on which ones to go for? I probably need to replace the discs anyway- is it worth getting a sportier set?

Pads are a personal preference, a lot of people go with either DS2500 or CL5+ for a starter track day pad. So that would be a good place to start. Depends exactly what you're after too, if you're going to drive to and from the track, you probably don't want to go too hardcore either.

Standard Brembo HC disc are what most people use on the front

 

[Captain Hat]

Pads are a personal preference, a lot of people go with either DS2500 or CL5+ for a starter track day pad. So that would be a good place to start. Depends exactly what you're after too, if you're going to drive to and from the track, you probably don't want to go too hardcore either.

Standard Brembo HC disc are what most people use on the front

I'll be using a trailer to get the car to and from the track. I have one available and it seems like a better option than just relying on never breaking the car at a track day.

 

[Djw John]

Its got odd compressibility specs and seems to cause issues with certain seals, specifically VAG clutch seals. I've gone away from using it and back to either decent 'normal' dot 4 or RBF and similar fluids.
http://www.cliosport.net/threads/cl-rc6-or-rc8.801305/

Interesting reading, cheers for that

 

[Captain Hat]

Right, so with thanks to @alistairolsen and @Potatoes and everyone else for their input, my immediate plan runs something like this:

1: Get HEL braided brake lines (I like the idea of stainless ends, I've had bad experiences with corroded brake line tips when doing repairs before).
2: Get Brembo HC discs and DOT 4 fluid, do some research into specific brake pads with starting points at Mintex M1155, DS2500 and CL5+ pads.
3: Pull out the front fogs and run an air cooling line to the front brakes instead (probably overkill for me, but overkill is underrated).
4: Take a look at the front suspension arms, see if anything needs fixing, do basic maintenance etc.
5: Probably pull some important bits off the front suspension to fix my road car. Spend too much money replacing them.
6: Mull over several budget options before impulse buying some (probably expensive) coilovers I don't need but like the look of.
7: Strip the car out and fit all of the parts. Probably end up with a few spares I didn't intend to.
8: Get my suspension settings wrong and scare myself on the track.
9: Adjust until not awful, figure out what can be done to improve things.
10: Discover that the unintentional spares were important and spend an entire day taking everything apart to put them back in.
11: Don't actually get around to putting them back in.
12: Run out of patience and sell the car on ClioSport.net for a fraction of what I paid to put it together.

Does that sound about right?

 

[JB21]

Just received notification that the Mintex M1155 pads will be with me tomorrow, so will let you know how they compare to CL5+ and DS2500 as I've used both on track. All 3 have a very similar coefficient so will be interesting if they're as good at near half the price.

 

[Djw John]

The true cliosport way is to spend every bit of money you've ever had to get it track ready and then sell before going near a track because it's too raw.

 

[Adam G]

The true cliosport way is to spend every bit of money you've ever had to get it track ready and then sell before going near a track because it's too raw.

Or use it once a year and polish it every Sunday and take pics of it covered in jizz, sorry snowfoam

 

[alistairolsen]

The true cliosport way is to spend every bit of money you've ever had to get it track ready and then sell before going near a track because it's too raw.

At a massive loss

 

[Captain Hat]

Right, so I now have a pretty clear idea of what I want in terms of brakes and brake fluid (with massive thanks to everybody, particularly @George@RTR_Parts ). In the interests of getting Step 6 rolling, what do you guys know about refreshing the suspension on a 172 Cup? I'm probably looking at needing two sets eventually, though in the short to medium term I can probably get away with replacing the track car's suspension with an upgrade of some sort and swapping the slightly-less-shot components from that onto my road car.

I will need at least one set of top mounts at the front, as I only have one good set at the moment, in addition to anything else.

Looking at low to midrange coilovers, this is the one that's caught my eye most convincingly so far: http://www.larkspeed.com/index.pl?p=11RSX706&a=i

What do you guys think? I've seen mostly-good things about the SPAX kit and this seems like a not-completely-terrible deal.

 

[JB21]

Honesty mate, just pay the extra £166 and get the BC BR's with adjustable solid top mounts from Kamracing. As @JamesBryan said the RSX kits have really soft springs for a track car.

 

[JamesBryan]

For a dedicated track car the RSX are just the same as Bilstein B14's and H&R's. Too soft.

You want 8-9kg/450-500lbs springs and you can only get that with BC's, AST's or the Ktec 182 championship spec RSX's.

 

[Captain Hat]

So these: https://www.kamracing.co.uk/manufac...ilovers-172-182-renaultsport-inc-172-cup.html
with 9/8 springs?

Or these: https://www.kamracing.co.uk/manufac...e-rn-2-0-16v-rs-172-172-cup-182.html?___SID=U

with 8/8s?

 

[JamesBryan]

So these: https://www.kamracing.co.uk/manufac...ilovers-172-182-renaultsport-inc-172-cup.html
with 9/8 springs?

Yes, with the option for the top mounts ticked as well.

 

[Captain Hat]

Cool, thanks. That seems like a pretty decent deal actually.

 

[JamesBryan]

Cool, thanks. That seems like a pretty decent deal actually.

For what you get, it's a good price really.

 

[JamesBryan]

Also, just so you know, that will be stiff if used on the road.

Roughly twice as stiff as your usual coilovers, if you'd ever driven a Clio on them.

 

[Captain Hat]

That's fine; I can get the Spax set or just stock replacements for my road car; as I said, this one's not going to be driven on roads, it's a dedicated track machine.

Speaking of stock replacements, do you know where I'd go for those when the time comes? Renault Parts Direct good?

I apologise if this is silly basic stuff but I figure I might as well ask; there's no compulsion on you to answer all of my dumb questions

 

[JB21]

That's fine; I can get the Spax set or just stock replacements for my road car; as I said, this one's not going to be driven on roads, it's a dedicated track machine.

Speaking of stock replacements, do you know where I'd go for those when the time comes? Renault Parts Direct good?

I apologise if this is silly basic stuff but I figure I might as well ask; there's no compulsion on you to answer all of my dumb questions :tongueout:

I got my OE cup packed front dampers from EBay for £79 from Renault Wolverhampton, not sure on the 172cup but should be similar priced. Think the rears where around £60. I coupled these to AMAX (APEX) springs from ECP.

 

[alistairolsen]

for your road car, OE cup dampers and cooksport or Eibach springs. Use the savings over coilovers to upgrade your track car to decent coilovers imho.
Put cup wishbones with new OE bushings on both.
For the rest, Lemforder or TRW or whatever. Ive found these guys well priced: https://www.buycarparts.co.uk/

 

[JamesBryan]

Renault Wolverhampton for oem shocks.

 

[Peperami]

Brakes and suspension will be the biggest changes you can make to a clio. brembo hc discs, ds2500 pads and baided lines with good fluid is fine, as the car is so light. remove the fogs and run some ducting through to the arch and itll help cooling.

Coilovers are worth the money when you can get them.

15" wheels will save you money on tyres, as you'll go through them a lot.

 

[JB21]

Just received notification that the Mintex M1155 pads will be with me tomorrow, so will let you know how they compare to CL5+ and DS2500 as I've used both on track. All 3 have a very similar coefficient so will be interesting if they're as good at near half the price.

Just thought I'd give a quick update on these pads, only used them on the road so far but cold bite is very good, as is progression and fade resistance, Ive given them a real good test around country lanes and A roads trying to imitate track braking scenarios and they where spot on, bite just as well as the CL5+ and seem better than the DS2500 in both bite and fade resistance. I've got a few track day coming so I will get my full review up then, but for the money so far they are extremely good pads.

 

[imprezaworks]

Yeah they are a decent well priced pad

 

[JB21]

Yeah they are a decent well priced pad

Near £50 less than the CL5+ & DS2500, I'll see how they hold up on track first before I give my full verdict, got high hopes for them though.

 

[James363]

I'd do tyres way before you put coilovers, or at least at the same time. Depending on what you already have of course, but most budget road tyres will overheat in no time. Putting the sticky tyres on early, allows you to pick brake pads that can generate the braking force the stickier tyres can handle, and a stiffer set up that doesn't move so much under the increased cornering force. A cheapo set of used R888's or NS2R's in 195-50-15 is worth it, can sell the 16" turinis to pay for it if needed as well.

 

[Captain Hat]

I need new tyres anyway, and have already started looking into what's good for track use; the only reason I'm looking at suspension this early is because I need to replace bits of my daily driver's suspension already (another 172 Cup) and the easiest way for me to do that is to take the stock suspension off my track car- that way I only have to buy one set of new components.

 

[James363]

That makes sense, yeah. I use Koni Yellow adjustables on my car, can't afford to go trashing a set of AST's over the terrain... They're ok, but I think you'd want more for track work.