Setting up a Ph2 172 to handle like a meggy R26?`

[rolly]

Had a track day recently and drove a mates F1 with an LSD - and was instantly 5 seconds a lap quicker. 1:22 vs 1:27

Now I realise that it has more power and the tyres and LSD makes a bit of difference too, however it was simply more composed through corners and direction changes than my stead.

I currently have standard shocks with Eibach Pros on Bridgestone RE-11's. The meggy was stock on R888's.

I run 15" wheels as that's what our market got.

Any thoughts on where to go from here to try and close the gap especially from those that have driven both on a track.

 

[Rob669]

A case of, where do you start? Buy a Lotus!

You'll already know that Cios are a completely diff car. The LSD makes more than just a bit of a difference. Clio Cup 172 is my best advice but even then you won't get close. IMHO it's a fruitless challenge unless you spend big bucks on coilovers, tyres and gain a lot more power (in which case just buy an F1 or better still a Lotus).

 

[Cookson]

Tyres say alot. They are you're only pointo of contact with the road

 

[Budgie]

R888's will be the difference, I'd say!

Coilovers and decent discs and pads next for you!

 

[.Kev.]

A case of, where do you start? Buy a Lotus!

You'll already know that Cios are a completely diff car. The LSD makes more than just a bit of a difference. Clio Cup 172 is my best advice but even then you won't get close. IMHO it's a fruitless challenge unless you spend big bucks on coilovers, tyres and gain a lot more power (in which case just buy an F1 or better still a Lotus).

Some good advice there. Cough Cough.

 

[marinemackay2003]

better coilovers not just springs for a start
slightly more power
buy an lsd
corner weighted and profesionally set up suspension

tht lot should see you fairly good

 

[Yellow Dave]

A standard 225 megane is far more composed compared to a clio. it's just the characteristic feature of a twichy back end. that is lost i beleive with the 197/ 200 that feels a lot more planted and balanced.

 

[Sir_Dave]

The R26 had R888's. They will make anything/anybody quick on track.

My advise is to buy some R888's, add some decent coilovers (ie Bilsteins), lose some weight out the car, then go hunt the R26.

 

[Soot1e]

The only way you'll keep up with the Meg. is buy one yourself.

 

[Brett]

R888's make a big difference. Good coilovers such as KW 2's or Bilstens, a whiteline ARB, solid top mounts, geo setup inc corner weighting, upgraded brakes and some good tyres such as R888's will greatly help.

Your talking a fair bit of cash though, and the question is will going faster on track actually make it any more fun.

 

[rolly]

Thanks All,

I know it will never be as fast, I would just like a bit more composure entry and mid corner. Mine is much more fun and responsive throttle wise, and the meg does not actually pull on the Clio - I can achive peak speed within 5km/h - and given the drive out of the corners the Meg has - that's saying something.

Engine mods are stealth exhaust and RS tuner map.

I think its the suspension that will be next to get it with less roll and lower COG. the whitleline ARB could be a goer as well.

There is a lot of cash differences between what mine is worth and an R26 over here, so room for improvements before an upgrade

 

[Rob669]

Quite nice to get a post from so far away. Are there many RS Clio's in NZ?

 

[rolly]

Thanks,

There would be less than 100 RS's altogether I would think - PH1 PH2 172, 182, v6,meggy 225, F1 and R26 combined.

 

[robins]

Putting a little bit of front toe-in on the car makes a world of difference. I was experimenting with various toe settings at the weekend, and with about 2mm of toe-in, it made the car a lot less nervous and twitchy and also a lot more predictable. I could feel the limit of grip coming a lot more easily. I noticed a similar difference between my car and a meg 250 which I drove around bedford autodrome and i would say this change alone has made the car feel a lot more like the megane - to get an identicle feeling I imagine you would need to add 300kg and run much bigger wheels aswell - that has a habit of composing a car also .

 

[Gardus]

Robins, toe in always gives stability in a traight line and very fast corners, the car is less sensible to camber changes and the steering is more self-centering BUT usually turn in is slower and you lose a bit of traction out of the slow corners, you lose agility.
Many german cars have toe and caster set up for stability and predictable (but slower) handling.

It doesn't help with stability in changin direction or braking, for that you need a bettere suspension setup, firmer and more controlled.

 

[robins]

Gardus, yes there are trade offs with running toe-in, like you said the car is less responsive with turn in and the car can feel less agile. This isn't necessarily a bad thing depending what you want the steering to feel like and the car setup to be (more composed). The car will feel more stable when changing direction as the slip angles on the front tyres are working differently to toe-out, so the way at which the yaw rate builds is gradual and more confidence inspiring. The braking stability will be improved due to the self centering effect that toe has, running greater amounts of either toe-in (or out) help to acheive braking stability due to that self centering effect. With toe in and the compliance in the front suspension under braking the wheels will have a tendancy to move towards parallel whereas with toe-out under braking the toe out will increase further which can cause a bit of instability on uneven surfaces. What Rolly was asking for was a setup more like a megane which this helps to achieve without spending lots of money on various suspension components. Running firmer suspension helps but suspension geometry is everso important for the overall steering feel of the car and the initial yaw rate change linked to it. Renault sets all the mk2 RS clios up with a bit of toe out to give the impression that they are "sporty and agile" apart from the cup (intended for more high performance driving and track use) which runs parallel. Try it you might like it!

 

[rolly]

Nice chaps, this is the kind of talk I like.

I'm currently running 1.5 camber with neutral toe - which is probably part of the issue, I have also since found out that the tyre pressures I was running were on the low side. Tyres are completely new to me, and they work quite differently to my old GSD3's, so it's a learning curve all over again to find what works for me.

I would go for the whiteline ARB too but to me it sticks out like the dogs b****cks and is not very subtle(which is what I like), although to get the handling how I like it, I may just have to suck it up.

I will probably get some camber/toe shims for the rear also as I currently have a toe problem back there (both pointing left ever so slightly) and ad a bit more camber.

 

[robins]

Getting the rear straight is a good plan. Camber wise, the rear is set-up pretty well as standard - you will wear the tyres evenly at the rear on a track. Adding more camber at the rear will start to decrease the rear grip as you are reducing the tyre footprint. The front on the otherhand can run with a fair bit more camber if you like. There is a good article here about it all,

http://www.readyforthetrack.co.uk/2...shims-camber-bolts-and-setting-up-suspension/

The whiteline ARB will simply make your car's steady state balance more oversteery, it helps a bit with turn-in aswell. It's a good cheap bolt on upgrade that will cut laptimes - burpspeed have used it successfully on their track car. Its adjustable so dialing in the car to suit a particular day/weather conditions is easy to do aswell. Although I agree not the most elegant of solutions!

Tyres are a tricky one and you will find a happy medium from pressures with a bit of experimentation as it really does depend on the individual tyre. Rule of thumb, increasing pressure reduces grip, decreasing pressure increases grip but that is by no means gospel!

Putting spherical bearings in place of the bushes in the rear beam is something that I want to try, you can really feel the compliance and axle phasing (rear taking its time to catch up with the front) with some sticky tyres on track with the standard bushes. Puremotorsports offer a kit for this - they might be able to send it over to NZ: http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/ClioShopLevel1.htm another cheap little mod

Hope this all helps, best thing to do is experiment and find something that suits you. Toe is easy to do accurately with a flat level ground, some string, a calculator and a ruler/vernier. Camber with a plumbline and a ruler/vernier. It just takes a longer but is still a lot more accurate than you're local spanner monkey setting it up with some dunlop gauges.

 

[shiftspark]

Toe is easy to do accurately with a flat level ground, some string, a calculator and a ruler/vernier. Camber with a plumbline and a ruler/vernier. It just takes a longer but is still a lot more accurate than you're local spanner monkey setting it up with some dunlop gauges.

Can you give us more info on how to do this ? ?

Cheers