Slightly Weird Steering On Rough Roads, Slight Play In Wheel

[MorroN]

Hi All,

Have been driving my Clio a little more recently. The steering has felt a little bit weird when going over rough and bumpy roads.

• The track rod ends, inner rods and wishbones, Inner and outer ARB bushes, top mounts, and shocks were changed for Renault or OE a few years ago but less than 15k miles ago
• The ARB outer bushes were fucked and have been replaced recently
• Recently put powerflex steering rack bushes on, triple checked all of the bolts are tight and bushes seated correctly.
• Alignment was done after the rack bushes went on (reading was -0.08 and -0.07 on the front toe)

I jacked it up on the left side to check for play in the wheel. At the 9 - 3 position it feels solid, I can move the rack a bit if I put a bit of force in but I can't see any play, just smooth movement in the track rod ends/ track rods.
At the 12 - 6 position there isn't much movement at all but I can hear an ever so slight clunk/knock if I really go mad at the 12 position, I can't get it to do it at the 6 position. If I rotate the wheel 180 degrees, the noise is still only at the top.

When under the car, I stuck a bar under the tyre and levered upwards to see if there was any ball joint movement, and I couldn't see any, just normal suspension movement.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

You need these solid rack bushes

Bague fixation cremaillere Clio Cup, Clio Gr N et Clio 2 RS

Retrouvez toutes les pieces de Clio Gr N Renault sport parmi nos produits pour l'entretien, la préparation et l'optimisation sur www.optimiz-access.fr Pièces et Accessoires Spécialiste Renault Sport Optimiz Access

www.optimiz-access.fr

And to replace the columns lower joint with this solid piece. The original is very sloppy.

RENAULT WIND 2011 STEERING COLUMN SHAFT LOWER JOINT FAST POSTAGE | eBay

YOU MUST VIEW EVERY IMAGE FOR ITEM CONDITION SOME PARTS WILL HAVE DAMAGE. BUYERS RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK FOR ALL DAMAGE IN PHOTOS BEFORE PURCHASING WE WONT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVEN'T ACKNOWLEDGED ALL DAMAGE PRIOR TO ORDERING *COMPATIBILITY* IF YOU'RE IN DOUBT SPEAK WITH YOUR MECHANIC AND...

www.ebay.co.uk

You will never get rid of that play without these. I have a standard 182 with the above and it tracks dead straight over bumps/ruts, I also have a track clio with a manual quick rack and that is even better due to no torsion bar, but is heavy to say the least.

 

[MorroN]

You need these solid rack bushes

Bague fixation cremaillere Clio Cup, Clio Gr N et Clio 2 RS

Retrouvez toutes les pieces de Clio Gr N Renault sport parmi nos produits pour l'entretien, la préparation et l'optimisation sur www.optimiz-access.fr Pièces et Accessoires Spécialiste Renault Sport Optimiz Access

www.optimiz-access.fr

And to replace the columns lower joint with this solid piece. The original is very sloppy.

RENAULT WIND 2011 STEERING COLUMN SHAFT LOWER JOINT FAST POSTAGE | eBay

YOU MUST VIEW EVERY IMAGE FOR ITEM CONDITION SOME PARTS WILL HAVE DAMAGE. BUYERS RESPONSIBILITY TO LOOK FOR ALL DAMAGE IN PHOTOS BEFORE PURCHASING WE WONT BE HELD RESPONSIBLE IF YOU HAVEN'T ACKNOWLEDGED ALL DAMAGE PRIOR TO ORDERING *COMPATIBILITY* IF YOU'RE IN DOUBT SPEAK WITH YOUR MECHANIC AND...

www.ebay.co.uk

You will never get rid of that play without these. I have a standard 182 with the above and it tracks dead straight over bumps/ruts, I also have a track clio with a manual quick rack and that is even better due to no torsion bar, but is heavy to say the least.

Interesting, is the wind column a direct bolt in replacement, is it an easy job? I think I have seen some people on the forum just weld the original column up.

With the slight clunk at 12 and 6 I am also worried that there might be an actual problem rather than just the usual bit of sloppiness

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Interesting, is the wind column a direct bolt in replacement, is it an easy job? I think I have seen some people on the forum just weld the original column up.

With the slight clunk at 12 and 6 I am also worried that there might be an actual problem rather than just the usual bit of sloppiness

You replace this piece, it takes a little heat to loosen up and then hammer off, I use a rubber mallet to not damage it. Then measure the column to make sure it goes back on in the same place, although you have some room for error. Of course making sure its clocked the same as well.

I think the welding was done on the mk1 clios, the 1*2s have a rubber insert, thats why they are sloppy.

It could be the rack, they are a poor design and the pinion is not supported that well. The pre load could be out or the bearing could be gone.

I have modifed the housing to take a bigger bearing that is a press fit to the pinion, as they pinion can move by hand even with all brand new bearings built up.

Original bearing on left

 

[MorroN]

That’s great info, thanks, but I think it’s a bit beyond my capabilities to be honest. I might look into the column mod though.

Here is a video of the noise. On closer inspection I think it’s just the suspension strut rattling around in the top mount a bit when the car is jacked up on one side. Only happens at 12 o clock.
If I out my hand on the strut I can feel it moving with the noise. I checked both sides and they are exactly the same.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Sorry I cant really help. If you know the wheel bearings ok then could be top mounts?

 

[Robbie Corbett]

Wheel bearing.

 

[MorroN]

Wheel bearing.
That would make sense. I’ll jack both sides up at the weekend to double check and roll down some hills out of gear to have a listen, cheers. Thanks both

 

[MorroN]

Okay so I investigated a bit more today.

• Rolled down a big hill in neutral, no wheelbearingy type noises.
  
  
• Jacked both sides of the car up, I can’t replicate the noise in the above vid at all, everything feels solid and there is no play or clunks at all. I think the clunk was just the top mount moving a bit when jacked up on one side, the because of the stress on the ARB pushing the strut up.
  
  
• Un bolted the track rod ends on both sides. The ends feel solid and are stiff to move by hand. The inners have no play at all but are not stiff, the flop down under their own weight. Does this mean they could do with replacing?
  
  
• Popped the lower ball joints out to have a look, one side was fine but the other had been improperly bolted to the wishbone and a washer was pinched under one side of the bolt head. Weirdly, the ball joints have 10mm bolts (usually 12mm aren’t they?,the holes in the wishbones are also 10mm, they are ebay specials) It also had really odd 14mm nuts that were completely rounded, I had to use an extractor to get them off!

I reckon the angle this was on may have been allowing the ball joint to shift around on rough roads. No idea what happened there, the ball joints were already fitted to the wishbones so may be crappy manufacturing and I missed it or someone molested it later, I reckon the latter because it would be easy to see on a shiny new part. I ordered a new pair of ball joints with bolts and will see if that sorts it. Might do the track rods too depending on what you guys think

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

I would do the inners now if you are doing other bits, at least that jobs ticked off for a while.

That washer is funny, someone must of blindly put the bolt in and zapped it with a gun without checking.

Regarding top mounts, I didnt think that play would happen with the car jacked up so somethings definitely gone be it bearing or top mounts.

 

[Jekyll]

M12 is sports, M10 is non sports. I presume you've ordered the bigger size?

Interesting thread as I am chasing a similar issue. I've done the usual checks like yourself, but mine sounds like it's in the rack itself. (I've used a 4 poster ramp and someone doing the steering while I look underneath with the weight on)

That solid section in the link above looks good and for not a lot of money, so that's worth something to consider.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Heres another Same as used on clio epas

2011 RENAULT TWINGO 1.2 PETROL GT ELECTRIC POWER STEERING COLUMN 8200809808 | eBay

Make & Model: RENAULT TWINGO. Fuel Type: PETROL. Trim: GT 3 DOOR HATCHBACK. ELECTRIC POWER STEERING COLUMN. Engine Capacity: 1149CC. Engine Code Condition: USED. Transmission: MANUAL.

www.ebay.co.uk

 

[MorroN]

I would do the inners now if you are doing other bits, at least that jobs ticked off for a while.

That washer is funny, someone must of blindly put the bolt in and zapped it with a gun without checking.

Regarding top mounts, I didnt think that play would happen with the car jacked up so somethings definitely gone be it bearing or top mounts.

So the play doesn’t happen at all when jacked up on both sides, I guess that would eliminate the wheel bearings because I would expect suspension stress not to matter. Will have a look at the top mounts today.

 

[MorroN]

M12 is sports, M10 is non sports. I presume you've ordered the bigger size?

Interesting thread as I am chasing a similar issue. I've done the usual checks like yourself, but mine sounds like it's in the rack itself. (I've used a 4 poster ramp and someone doing the steering while I look underneath with the weight on)

That solid section in the link above looks good and for not a lot of money, so that's worth something to consider.

I’ve ordered the M10 ball joints as these OE wishbones weirdly have M10 holes.

I like the solid section idea too, gonna access how much of a PITA it will be today 😂

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

Wrong wishbones, ebay special. They will have reduced caster and be one of the reasons the car feels bad.

 

[MorroN]

Wrong wishbones, ebay special. They will have reduced caster and be one of the reasons the car feels bad.

What are the options for replacing now Renault discontinued one side? Getting a used set and replacing the bushes?

Do you know what the stock caster should be? From people posting alignment pics it looks like it should be about 2.5 degrees

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

What are the options for replacing now Renault discontinued one side? Getting a used set and replacing the bushes?

Do you know what the stock caster should be? From people posting alignment pics it looks like it should be about 2.5 degrees

I think nearer to 3.3 for 182, 172s had less caster.

I would think so yes, not a great problem to have on these cars these days where new parts are nla.

 

[MorroN]

quick update, car is driving much better with the new properly fitted ball joints. Have got some knackered extra caster wishbones to refurb on the way too. Thanks all

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

quick update, car is driving much better with the new properly fitted ball joints. Have got some knackered extra caster wishbones to refurb on the way too. Thanks all

But are these the 10mm hole joints? Wont they be different to the 12mm sport ones? Just guessing I dont know for sure.

 

[MorroN]

But are these the 10mm hole joints? Wont they be different to the 12mm sport ones? Just guessing I dont know for sure.

Yeah they are 10mm on the car right now, I will have to get another set of 12mm ball joints for refurbing the genuine wishbones unfortunately

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

@Touring_Rob You think this would work? Concentric washer type things for 10mm hole ball joints to adjust camber, caster, king pin inclination..? You could have small markers on the 'washers' to use to align up with reference points of the wishbone for quick adjustment. Things would be more rigid than using 10mm bolts in the 12mm hole joints and the ease of alignment to. I guess you could always make them bigger and drill the original wishbone holes out slightly and keep the standard 12mm ball joints.

 

[MorroN]

@Touring_Rob You think this would work? Concentric washer type things for 10mm hole ball joints to adjust camber, caster, king pin inclination..? You could have small markers on the 'washers' to use to align up with reference points of the wishbone for quick adjustment. Things would be more rigid than using 10mm bolts in the 12mm hole joints and the ease of alignment to. I guess you could always make them bigger and drill the original wishbone holes out slightly and keep the standard 12mm ball joints.

View attachment 1612127

Very cool idea, here is a doc that leads me to believe the 10mm and 12mm ball joints are the same except for the mounting holes PROTIPS22410_GB.PDF (bilsteingroup.com). I currently have the Febi 10640 ones on my ebay special wishbones.

 

[Robbie Corbett]

@Touring_Rob You think this would work? Concentric washer type things for 10mm hole ball joints to adjust camber, caster, king pin inclination..? You could have small markers on the 'washers' to use to align up with reference points of the wishbone for quick adjustment. Things would be more rigid than using 10mm bolts in the 12mm hole joints and the ease of alignment to. I guess you could always make them bigger and drill the original wishbone holes out slightly and keep the standard 12mm ball joints.

View attachment 1612127

My lexus has similar eccentric washers on the rear upper arms, seen a few OEM's do similar so yes I think it would work. The other think that works (and might be simpler here) is an eccentric bolt that sits in a concentric cup. BMW do this for their control arms on lots of cars.

 

[Beauvais Motorsport]

My lexus has similar eccentric washers on the rear upper arms, seen a few OEM's do similar so yes I think it would work. The other think that works (and might be simpler here) is an eccentric bolt that sits in a concentric cup. BMW do this for their control arms on lots of cars.

You've just reminded of the eccentric wishbone bushings that I have on my own clio 😄

If this was something I was going to make the repeat-ability of the washers would be far easier than an eccentric bolt but if there were an off the shelf option which Im sure there is something close, perhaps a slight modification would be needed but might make it a very easy and cheap modification for more control of the suspension geometry. Ive seen a while ago people re welding the holes in their wishbones for more caster but this obviously would be a plug and play sort of thing. Something to think about...

 

[Karlos172]

Hi, sorry to hijack your thread I have a 182 Trophy and have a similar issue which has been a nightmare. Since I replaced front suspension with new genuine parts steering has felt light, unstable and unassured, before it was tight and precise. I replaced both front wishbones, ball joints, track rod ends, top mounts, coil spring caps all with new genuine parts. Wheel alignment done 3 times although does still not seem right, car pulls left and right when accelerating and backing off throttle, is worse on cambered roads.

I'm wondering about refitting my old original wishbones once new bushes pressed in before I start replacing front shocks, track rod ends etc as I'm aware of some differences in wishbones?

 

[hopgop1]

Might be worth having the tracking looked at by someone else if it's the same place that's looked at it 3 times. Can't see how the old wishbones would help if the replacements were brand new genuine and the correct part number.

 

[npt]

Most likely wrong alignment setting I'd say

 

[MorroN]

Hi, sorry to hijack your thread I have a 182 Trophy and have a similar issue which has been a nightmare. Since I replaced front suspension with new genuine parts steering has felt light, unstable and unassured, before it was tight and precise. I replaced both front wishbones, ball joints, track rod ends, top mounts, coil spring caps all with new genuine parts. Wheel alignment done 3 times although does still not seem right, car pulls left and right when accelerating and backing off throttle, is worse on cambered roads.

I'm wondering about refitting my old original wishbones once new bushes pressed in before I start replacing front shocks, track rod ends etc as I'm aware of some differences in wishbones?

Where did you get new genuine wishbones from ?

 

[Brigsy]

Hi, sorry to hijack your thread I have a 182 Trophy and have a similar issue which has been a nightmare. Since I replaced front suspension with new genuine parts steering has felt light, unstable and unassured, before it was tight and precise. I replaced both front wishbones, ball joints, track rod ends, top mounts, coil spring caps all with new genuine parts. Wheel alignment done 3 times although does still not seem right, car pulls left and right when accelerating and backing off throttle, is worse on cambered roads.

I'm wondering about refitting my old original wishbones once new bushes pressed in before I start replacing front shocks, track rod ends etc as I'm aware of some differences in wishbones?

Castor correct on the new wishbones? Camber also somewhere near?

 

[Karlos172]

Where did you get new genuine wishbones from ?

Renault Parts Direct in Feb 2020.