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Spoilers - Obviously Cool!





great inventions eh? they make the car look a trillion times better.

But Are they actually any good? Whilst doin around 90-100mph unloaded with two ppl in front, me car waved about and wobbled a fair bit. it was a bumpy ride. But doint the same on the same road but with 2ppl in the back weighing it down, me car drove great! (even if it took much longer to get to the magic number!)

Basically, is this due to increased downforce at the back, stopping it from swaying around?

If so, are spoilers any good, Im after a DTM/touring stylee: which sizes/types will affect the drive of the car...

Or were they made just to improve looks?

Cheers fellaz
 

GR7

  Shiny red R32


My friend with the RS 500 Cosworth has a spoiler which looks like a picnic table!
 


a road spoiler wil not do anything, period....except for the things you see on porsches and McClarens etc. So dont bother.
 
  Lionel Richie


I read an article in REVS once about a saxo that had a roof mounted spoiler and it caused too much downforce and put pressure on the rear screen causing it too blow out!!!!!!!!
 


well, yeah, that was one of those super ally ones which basically create a whole sh*t load of drag, not downforce.
 


OH ok then!

I was looking forward to loads of new road stick!

Is it worth getting one simply for looks then, or will it cause too much drag?

Also, any ideas y me car handled better?

cheers guys
 
  BMW 320d Sport


I wouldnt go as far as to say a road spoiler wont do anything Ben...ok the majority of aftermarket spoilers are for show and simply cause drag, but there are certain designs which would work to cause downforce - especially seeing as there are at least two methods that I know of that are relatively easy to achieve on a road car that isnt a Porsche or whatever.

Firstly, something like the spoiler on the back of a Clio Cup car which isnt exactly a complicated design, basically an upward slope that overhangs the tailgate will create downforce or more accurately, reduce lift at the rear, by directing the airflow over and away from the tailgate rather than letting it follow the line of the tailgate.

The other way is to use basically an upside down aeroplane wing profile, standing proud of the bodywork where it is in the airflow, then you have the legs of it which trasmit the downforce into the body of the car. Either principle can be utilised in a road spoiler design quite simply I would have thought.
 


ah, you see, aerodynamics dont really come into play until ablove 70mph. And the hatch back design is one that is effectively more aerodynamic than the tradytional saloon style design, which is why volvo entered its estate car in BTCC first, but it was too heavy. The air comming off a hatch back basically justflows over the roof, then oops, into empty space if ya follow, whereas on a saloon, it has to go along the rear window, boot then off the back. Traditionally, it was thought that if air comes off smoothly, itll create less drag, but the shapes employed to creates this smooth runoff of air, ended up like a aeroplane wind cross section, creating more lift. The advantage of a hatch back, is air just enters open space, and swirls behind the car on the way off, creating the area of low pressure behind the car, not on top.
What can most easily be explained as a gurney flap on the clio cup cars, is as you say to decrease lift at high speeds, but the air wouldnt follow the tailgate anyway. The upside down wing as you say, works, and it was the primary design on the F1 lotuses in the 60s. However, the road spoilers you can buy, create more drag than they do downforce as they are effectively a J profile mirrored on the horisontal plane, the rotated 90 deg clockwise (sorry, bad explanation i know), and these priciples are to redirect the flow of air so that it pushes down on the car, not creating an area of lower pressure as spoilers should do. So, they create huge amounts of drag, and you will go slower, but who really goes 100mm though corners, and the ones you do go through that speed, arent sharp enough to warrent a spoiler.
maybe their called spoilers for a very obvious reason
 


i know nobod thinks i write it myself, but thats ok. I have been around cars since i was born, and my dad has run several race teams, i race, i have met many drivers and mechanics......read sh*t loads about all sorts of theories and pricipals. SO basically, my mind is a walking note book of useless stuff, cant ever get any job with it though
 


yeah, i just work at the same company as my dad, so hes retiring soon, so i can hopefully get a higher position before he leaves, saying that, development manager is great.
 

GR7

  Shiny red R32


Ben, when you start your new job, I hope you will continue to contribute on this website with all that information.
 


when i start my new job, ill be relying on the people here to help me with R&D and market orientation, so hopefully, what people want, is what people will get.
 
  BMW 320d Sport


Some good points Ben, I can always rely on you to get technical! Anyway I agree with everything there except the thing about the swirl on a hatchback - it depends on the rake of the tailgate, something very steep like say a Fiat Seicento or your example of a Volvo estate, yes the airflow will carry straight on over the end of the tailgate, so no low pressure swirl area which will lift the rear.

However on most hatches if the top of the tailgate is left unspoilered and there is nothing between the roof and the tailgate, to redirect the air over and outwards, the airflow will *not* naturally follow the horizontal-ish plane of the roofline. In part due to the boundary effect in fluid dynamics (correct me if Im wrong here) any fluid, including air has a tendency to stick to surfaces it flows past over and this creates the same swirl effect over the tailgate that you said only happens on a saloon. Thats why the WRC cars have those big, relatively simple looking spoilers like the Clio Cup one I mentioned; to split the roofline airflow and not allow it to swirl around the tailgate creating lift.
 


True, boundary layers are a b*****d, and thats why F1 inlet ports are machined with a golf ball dimple effect to create a turbulance layer, to stop flowing air sticking to the port sides and depositing fuel on the walls.
Anyway, i think we got a bit muddled up, on a sallon, the air will flow close to the body of the car, following its profile, and not creating a series of swirls behind it, the hatch design does. However, as you said, it has to be a steep hatch since the flowing air will not have enough energy to follow the sudden change of direction. Cars like the 19 16V hatch are shallow raked, so air follows the tailgate. The clio on the other hand, has a very steep hatch, where air would follow the initial change of direction, but breakoff about 12" down the tailgate and meet the air flowing from under the car. Where they meet, they both swirl from outside to inside, creating the lower pressure zone behind the car.
and the point i was making (i think we got this mixed up too) was that the swirls behind the car, is a more efficient, less drag and lower amounts of lift, way of getting air off the car. The saloon style body of a car will create more lift as the profile of the car looks like a aeroplane wing C/S (flat bottom, curved top) creating lift above the car, however, due to the motion of the car, this lift is not felt until the air flows off the boot, lifting the rear.
The design of a hatchback in simple terms allows less lift at speed, but a lower top speed, because the lower pressure zone behind the car is effectively exerting a pulling force from behind. Saloon or coupes, although they have problems with lift, will have higher top speeds (with the same engine for example) becaue the flow of air over the car is smooth, but creates lift.
 


hmm.....all sounds very very interesting this! Now just to add something.

If you think about the car you have air rushing along the top and air rushing across the bottom. Now please correct if Im wrong but if you are going for a better downwards force wouldnt it be even better if you lower the car or maybe add a front spoiler since then you have an even greater downwards force due to the pressure difference?

Maybe going a bit off the topics now since what you originally asked was that you wanted the back end of the car to stick! The lower you can get the car the more downwards force you will get, but offcourse this may become impractical.

People like Ferrari even go as far as to engineer the underbody of the car to create an even better downwards force.
 


CORRECT A MUNDO!!!
underbody flow is very important, bt ride hight isnt the key to a lower pressure zone below it. Basically, i got my letter into CCC magazine explaining the McClaren F1 underdody aerodynamics. Anyway, the less air flowing under the car, the lower the atmospheric pressure essetially, and then you get negative lift, sucking the car onto the ground. But it is easier to employ the venturi priciple. The faster air moves, the lower the pressure. Creating underbody aerodynamics, or ground effects on a road car is near impossible, except on cars designed from the begining to do so...not ferrari 550 & 360. On a road car, adding splitters wont do much, neither will lowering, although it will help. In F1 they use diffusers at the rear of the car, this takes the fast flowing air channeled under the car (with the use of swage boards and side pod design) and also the air flowing along the side of the side pods and spins it upwards and outwards. By spining it, the faster moving air expands, creating an area of lower pressure beneath the car, creating negative lift, and more grip. However, this only works at high speed, and one below 100mph, its not really nessisary. So if somebody tries to tell you that their diffuser gives them more grip, tell them to piss of....R&A ones for example, do nowt.
 


right then ive just decided.....
im not gonna read this topic anymore cause theres lots of writing, its too technical and the words are to long for my dumb ass to understand!!
 

GR7

  Shiny red R32


It is the other Bens fault because he has soooo much info in that head of his. Good job when he starts his new job so that he can put all his car knowledge to good use!
 


hah, cheers
is it me, of is this forum slow tonight, being a sat, i thought it would be full. most people are probably down the pub...man, i cant even get to one, its like miles away!
 

GR7

  Shiny red R32


Im at my PC supposed to be typing up a report but I have to keep peeping into the Cliosport site to see who is there, so have not done much work yet!

Where are you Ben?
 


all the way at the opposite side of england. In the west sussex, but am goin to france next week. So i wont be able to check up that often, and will fall so behind on whats happening....ill send you a post card
 

GR7

  Shiny red R32


I thought you were in Bristol, which I know well as I am originally from Somerset.
 


i am from bristol, but im at my parents house in west sussex since they came back from HK for my sisters wedding and a little holiday. Most of the year i use this house as a little getaway, and its got a huge garage, so do work in it. But not big enough for me to get my car out....DOH
If ya give me your address ill send it to ya....south of france/geneve (switzerland) or the alps..your choice
 
  BMW 320d Sport


Good points Ben, in F1 didnt they used to channel the exhaust into the venturi tunnel or something so by flooring it youd get more ground effect by lowering the air pressure even more than usual? Then if you let off the throttle in the middle of a corner suddenly the back end would lighten up and youd spin it?
 


yup, exactly what i wrote in the letter to CCC. It was pioneered by Senna and until last year Mcclaren still used it, but it made the car so unsettled that they binned it and exited the exhaust over the rear suspension assembly.
 


Hi BenR,

Yeah that is what i was on about but i just thought id better not have too much tech in it lol! Anyway dont know if you read RSC website I post under Alan there...think I mail you at one time? Anyway keep up the good info..I know who to ask next time Im in trouble!
 


Alan M?
If its you, i dont rally post on RSC anymore as its getting so boring, i think most people are moving over here. But its a say thing, and i think the constant popups are doin my head in!!!
I talk alot of tech here as almost everybody understands and we can usually have a good talk. ANyway, nice seeing you here.
 


haha, sorry, but your name keeps making me think, analplug hahaha, sorry i know.......but, i have grown up with a very crude bunch of friends.
 


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