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The 197: Have you grown up/old?



  RenaultSport clio 172 mk2
Young men don't like the same things as old men.

Young men are leaner, fitter, more athletic, have better reflexes and poorer. Old men are fatter, and slower and richer. The cars they like, the sports they like, the women they prefer reflect all the differences between them. Young men want to live on the edge, to take risks to show that they have the reflexes to survive. Old men want it comfortable and plush and to show they have power and the money to buy it.

The Clio Sport Mk 1 was a young mens' car. A light economy car with a big powerful engine stuffed in it. Sure it wouldn't beat a V8 down a drag strip, but it took risk-taking and reflexes to get the best out of it, and that's what it rewarded.

Then they turned it into the Mk2. It was better equipped, and heavier, and generally more "civilised".

Then they created the Mk3. Its everything old men want. Its smooth and quiet and competent. And 180 kgs fatter and slower.

Like pretty much everything else, car manufacturers are run by comfortable well-off old men. Just when you think they've understand what the customer wants, they stop listening to the customers out in the real world and listen to people like themselves and load up cars that young men liked with stuff they like and turn them into old mens' cars. And lose the market they created with the original model. I sometimes wonder whether its stupidity. Or whether its that a car company doesn't want to be seen as producing cars for young me because young men thrash and crash their cars which inevitably pushes up warranty costs and insurance costs and pushes down resale values and product reputations. Or whether they just resent not being young and slim and athletic and having quick reflexes any longer. They want the game to be played by rules that ensure that they win. That they can't be embarrassed by being beaten on the road by some young pup in a young man's car.
 
  106 GTi
It don't think most people on here think it's a crap car to be honet, and and exhaust would not be the think to make me want to buy one! Sort the overlight light sterring out first please Fred!

Written an a post/response akin to the thread started here in the fact that yes the 197 is a more grown up version of the 182. Which is not a bad thing, has loads of grip and composure, but if like myself your 172/182 is a replacement for an older hatch in a newer one, the loss of that feeling present from the the R5 GT Turbo right through until the 182 will be missed if you own a 197, I am not reay to grow up yet it seems.
 
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Young men don't like the same things as old men.

Young men are leaner, fitter, more athletic, have better reflexes and poorer. Old men are fatter, and slower and richer. The cars they like, the sports they like, the women they prefer reflect all the differences between them. Young men want to live on the edge, to take risks to show that they have the reflexes to survive. Old men want it comfortable and plush and to show they have power and the money to buy it.

The Clio Sport Mk 1 was a young mens' car. A light economy car with a big powerful engine stuffed in it. Sure it wouldn't beat a V8 down a drag strip, but it took risk-taking and reflexes to get the best out of it, and that's what it rewarded.

Then they turned it into the Mk2. It was better equipped, and heavier, and generally more "civilised".

Then they created the Mk3. Its everything old men want. Its smooth and quiet and competent. And 180 kgs fatter and slower.

Like pretty much everything else, car manufacturers are run by comfortable well-off old men. Just when you think they've understand what the customer wants, they stop listening to the customers out in the real world and listen to people like themselves and load up cars that young men liked with stuff they like and turn them into old mens' cars. And lose the market they created with the original model. I sometimes wonder whether its stupidity. Or whether its that a car company doesn't want to be seen as producing cars for young me because young men thrash and crash their cars which inevitably pushes up warranty costs and insurance costs and pushes down resale values and product reputations. Or whether they just resent not being young and slim and athletic and having quick reflexes any longer. They want the game to be played by rules that ensure that they win. That they can't be embarrassed by being beaten on the road by some young pup in a young man's car.

you sound like a silly "young person" with this post, was that the intention?
 

Daniel

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Have you driven both around the same circuit GordonD?? Thought not.

When/if you do, you'll realise that the 197 is a far superior car to the previous models in terms of cornering and braking.
 
  Golf GTI PP Mk7
The thing is, regardless of what we all think, 197's are selling, pretty well as I undertand it, so thats surely job done as far as Renault is concerned?

I think its a great car, its in no way boy racer-ish, its very composed on the road, it has a 6th gear (something my cup cud really do with) and its one seriously smooth drive. One must not forget that a cup version is planned, which may be a tad more hardcore to appeal to the 'young men' as you put it.

I think theyve designed a decent looking, very good to drive competent car that more than stands up to its rivals (Fiesta ST, Seat Cupra R etc...).
 
  Megane 230 R26
The most pointless thread I've ever replied to. In fact why on earth am I replying to it? ;) Damn.
 
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  CB600FS
Like fred said wait till they've ironed out a few problems (exhaust/steering/6th gear)

Lets wait for the cup shall we
 
Like fred said wait till they've ironed out a few problems (exhaust/steering/6th gear)

Lets wait for the cup shall we

LOL I have to laugh when I read about Renault ironing out problems. Get a grip FFS. The last 182 to roll off the line had the same faults as the first. Regardless of whether or not it's a good car, the Trophy version in 5-7 yeras time will have the same faults (whatever they may be) as the very first cars to be sold.

On that subject, have they sorted out the paintshop issues yet? Every 197 I've seen (not many) has had horrific orange peel on it's doors. An Aryton says it always will have, just like the Clio II passenger door has never fitted properly (I've never seen one, new or old, that didn't have an ill-fitting bottom half to its passenger door)

PS. I realise you're not really refering to 'problems'
 
  106 GTi
Orange peel seems to be a factor of most cars now they are using water based paints. It is fairly bad on my 182, but not to the extent it is on some 197s. Suprisingly it is also present on some high end cars that would never have had finishes like that in the past.
 
I've never seen what I'd call orange peel on my 182 though Rich. The 197 doors look terrible (those that I've seen)
 
  TT
It doesnt really have anything to do with the age of the managers etc, its a whole moving trend within the market, for starters, japanese cars have come in and had extras such as cheap GPS and A/C and generally bigger, for cheap, such as the micra etc

Also techonologies have also become cheaper and easier to produce, allowing them to add them into cars. The whole market is producing bigger cars, so renault have to follow? I find it very unlikely that the people the decided to design the clio how it is are driving clios, or renaults full stop! Your getting older, but thats it? The managers who were around when Mk1 was being designed would be the same age then as the managers now?

Different tastes and different expectations of what cars should come with
 
  172 FF
I read in a Magazine that there a concept car from renault a turbo twinglo in the making that sounded awsome. the clio is just growing into a magane so they'll end up with another small car to replace it. Same with the corsa and other cars.
 
  106 GTi
Doubt it - Whole car is like it, the more I polished it up it the worse it looked! lol

Bonnet

Other Rear Quarter

Get a pic of a 197 door.

Ok ...

IMG_0572.jpg
 
  ITB BG 182
Now that looks sh*te, But if that really got on your nerves you could always scrap £1500 of the sale price and get it re-sparyd by some one whos bloody good. Well i am some time next year.

Yea ive test drove the 197 for 25 miles (i know the sales gal) yea it does corner well an also does feel like its got more grip but that ultra light steering its like you just can not feel what ya front wheels are doing, theres no kick in the whole of the RPM's not like the 182, it does not sound as grunty as the 182 an yea i know what people are saying about orange peel, the whole of the 197 is terrible for it just after a normal wash never mind polish and wax.
And i know people who are already coming up with problems on the 197 some are just the same as the 182's. So value for money i dont think so at all and changing the exhaust wont make much differance, ill stick with my 182 ff thanks.
 
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Young men don't like the same things as old men.

Young men are leaner, fitter, more athletic, have better reflexes and poorer. Old men are fatter, and slower and richer. The cars they like, the sports they like, the women they prefer reflect all the differences between them. Young men want to live on the edge, to take risks to show that they have the reflexes to survive. Old men want it comfortable and plush and to show they have power and the money to buy it.

The Clio Sport Mk 1 was a young mens' car. A light economy car with a big powerful engine stuffed in it. Sure it wouldn't beat a V8 down a drag strip, but it took risk-taking and reflexes to get the best out of it, and that's what it rewarded.

Then they turned it into the Mk2. It was better equipped, and heavier, and generally more "civilised".

Then they created the Mk3. Its everything old men want. Its smooth and quiet and competent. And 180 kgs fatter and slower.

Like pretty much everything else, car manufacturers are run by comfortable well-off old men. Just when you think they've understand what the customer wants, they stop listening to the customers out in the real world and listen to people like themselves and load up cars that young men liked with stuff they like and turn them into old mens' cars. And lose the market they created with the original model. I sometimes wonder whether its stupidity. Or whether its that a car company doesn't want to be seen as producing cars for young me because young men thrash and crash their cars which inevitably pushes up warranty costs and insurance costs and pushes down resale values and product reputations. Or whether they just resent not being young and slim and athletic and having quick reflexes any longer. They want the game to be played by rules that ensure that they win. That they can't be embarrassed by being beaten on the road by some young pup in a young man's car.

Actually it's a girl’s car!:rasp:




Well off old men who want to flash the cash certainly don’t do it with a Clio, they are hardly status symbols!!
Or maybe it’s your own insecurities, that you can’t do it as well as an experienced man, that are really bothering you?! ;)
 

Darren S

ClioSport Club Member
The original poster has a point. I haven't driven a 197 and I have absolutely zero intention of doing so. It may or may not be on par with previous version of the RS Clios, but the simple fact is that I wouldn't want to look at that thing sat outside my house.

It's the looks of the thing in general. A bit like Elvis in his 6-pack cheeseburger eating days. You can see the traits of what makes it special, but they are hidden behind rolls of lard. The 197 looks heavier than it actually is and the dampening down of what it's 'purpose' is, is just a marketing feck-up. The twin pipes on the 182 couldn't be missed - yet the ones on the 197 you have to look closely at, to even notice them.

As I've said before, what's with the dropping of the '2.0 16v' from the door panels? Are the marketing bods at Reno embarrassed of the 197 being categorised as a 'hot hatch'? Or could it be that for a car of that large an appearance, 2.0 16v has little meaning - a bit a like seeing a 2.0 badge on the side of a Focus?

The final killer nail in the coffin as far as I'm concerned is seen with a quick visit to RenaultSport's UK website. See the tubby little 197 and then enter the jaw-droppingly gorgeous 230 F1 Meggy on the same site. They are poles apart in eye-candy appeal and pushes the 197 away from the limelight even more.

All in my opinion, of course.... ;)

D.
 
  monaco blue 172 ..
Get a pic of a 197 door.

Ok ...

IMG_0572.jpg
i paint coaches for a living and even i dont get a crap finish like that , but that said ,over the last few years they have been trying to slowly faze out the use of thinners (allsorts of stupid eu regulations) so that could easily explain the dodgy finish.....
i think cars are getting bigger and heavier due to the safety features that are being added ...... eg look at the old mini ,head on crash = engine in ya face ,,, new one bigger , beefier and more safe .....
 
  106 GTi
Water based paints in all bodyshops next year so I am told (basecoat only) so primer and laquer can still be oil based.
 
  monaco blue 172 ..
yeah thats what ive heard ..only applies to basecote ......but even though laquers and primers are still gonna be oil based the amount of thinners used has been halfed already to meet with eu regulations.which is obviously gonna result in a more orange peel effect .....unless they spend hours flatting n polishing which a dont think they have time for in the car industry lol
 
How come only the doors appear to suffer on the 197? They just have a problem in the paintshop IMO, and it needs sorting out.
 

Gaz_

ClioSport Club Member
  Extreme mode
i like the 197, looks nice squat on the road, harks back to the old valvers imo, better than our 172/182 versions with their 1.2 rear quarters....?
 
Have you driven both around the same circuit GordonD?? Thought not.

When/if you do, you'll realise that the 197 is a far superior car to the previous models in terms of cornering and braking.

How often do you get to take both cars on a proper test drive let alone a track!

Imo a car that can only shine when its being pushed on a track, is not a good all round car. Mainly as you have to pay for the priviledge of going on track, you can't live on a track and you have to live with it day to day.

I dont think the 197 is poor, In fact I dont doubt that in the right hands it will be faster by x.x seconds etc. Its just 80-90% of average drivers will be quicker in a 182 round a track IMO.

The 197 didnt have the 'oh my god I have to buy one' wow factor, I had two test drives of it to make sure. I still say they release a pearl white one , Ill buy it ! LOL TBH i have come very close to ordering a racing blue, recaros, tints, stereo and xenons LOL!
 

Gaz_

ClioSport Club Member
  Extreme mode
i think it just needed more power to give it the edge over the 172/182's imo, like the 172 did over the valvers/willys
 
  106 GTi
Water based paints in all bodyshops next year so I am told (basecoat only) so primer and laquer can still be oil based.

its already in place. has been since jan this year(06)

Really? - the 2 bodyshops I do work for and the paint suppliers I use are all still oil based/suppling oil base colour for the basecoat?

Both are preparing to go waterbased ready for the new year.
 
  Peddled device
One of my dream cars is an RS1600i Escort Mk3...in sunburst red.....l've driven a few and they are a tin can compared to my 182....things move on.I could buy a nice one but l would chose the 182 nearly every time l went out.Rich mans toy if you afford to own two cars...
 
i like the 197, looks nice squat on the road, harks back to the old valvers imo, better than our 172/182 versions with their 1.2 rear quarters....?


squat, they are the TALLEST clio's ever made ...lol

6" (150mm) more than my V6 and look like a "people carrier to me", I'm an old person to some on here (42 soon), but I wont be buying a Mk3 clio, just don't like the Mk3's size/shape.... :(


Simon
 
  Renault Clio 172 Ph2
Simon - comparing a 197 to ur v6 is stupid.

Taller than the mk2 or not, its wider. and so is the track.
 

Gaz_

ClioSport Club Member
  Extreme mode
thats what i meant.......

you get the idea...

P1040342.jpg
 
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