The infamous 197 flat spot

[Beasley Clio182]

Well I've decided in the near future to let the 182 go and start looking for a 197 !

Theres a few things pulling me towards a newer clio sport , mostly how much I love the way they drive a smile factor !

Now I've spent a while getting my 182 right , it drives lovely , and I don't want to swap it for something that's annoying !

My 182 has a RS tuner 98ron map on it which drastically improved everything from smoothness to the way power was delivered to MPG !

I try to do a lot if research before buying cars , the 197 being no exceptions , and I keep seeing this 'flat spot' mentioned at 2500rpm , now I'm under the impression this is exaggerated by a cat back decat or centre silencer removal ?

Id prefer some noise my 182 has a full decat and unsilenced K-tec so I want a bit of noise out the 197!

is the flat spot that noticeable? And if so could I use the RS tuner unit to get it mapped by henk? And would the map fix the flat spot ? Or does it have to be mapped in person ?

Thanks
Dean

 

[MartinR]

Live mapping will help but won't rid completly. You mention smile factor imo the mk3's don't give you that much.

I'd stick with the 182 and itb it.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Live mapping will help but won't rid completly. You mention smile factor imo the mk3's don't give you that much.

I'd stick with the 182 and itb it.

Hahaha I did think about just keeping my 182 , but the heavy clutch is REALLY starting to grate on me , and the car is now on 102k, and don't get me wrong it feels a strong engine, but I don't think there will be much benefit from any ITBS

 

[Addicted]

I'd still with the 182 personally, or go for something else completely.

The 197 (imo) would feel like too much of a sidestep, and in some cases worse -

* Flatspot
* Lower mpg, yet exactly the same performance (if not a tiny bit slower)
* Even more cheesy gearboxes


There's probably more don't get me wrong, they look smart, but they're also a bit "meh"

 

[not normal dan]

I went from 172 to 197 and back to a trophy, main reason I changed was to free up so cash when I was buying my house.

I think the 197 is a great car, granted the mpg isn't quite as good as the 1*2 but I find the 1*2 mpg calculators over exaggerate a little.

Driving experience there a lot more refined and much more modern but this doesn't make them boring at all as the chassis is awesome and they are such a well balanced car in the twisties and a lot easier to drive fast.

I personally never had any gearbox issues and mine got driven hard, very hard! But I have heard of others having problems, later cars also had slightly better ratios from what I read so there not sitting at 4k at 70 lol.

As much as i love the trophy and the 1*2 I'd have another 197 if I was in the market for buying a car.

 

[Advikaz]

A lot of people go on about this flat spot & yeah it is there. But you have to drive like a plum to find it IMO.

Mine pulls strong through every gear when driven right & i've got the silencer removed which is 'supposed' to make it worse.

When starting it up, let it run for a minute & mine never kangaroo's either.

 

[not normal dan]

A lot of people go on about this flat spot & yeah it is there. But you have to drive like a plum to find it IMO.

Mine pulls strong through every gear when driven right & i've got the silencer removed which is 'supposed' to make it worse.

When starting it up, let it run for a minute & mine never kangaroo's either.

Couldn't agree more, its the tiniest of flat spots and its hardly noticeable when pushing it on.

 

[jon_r]

Mine was fully decatted with an RS Tuning map and the flat spot was quite noticable. It used to be worse when you were slowing for a roundabout or similar and it was clear, then you'd get back on the power at about 2000rpm and it really used to bog down. It would also happen if you were in 5th or 6th behind something at lowish revs and they'd pull over and you'd want to accelerate away.

You can drive round it, but you certainly don't have to be 'driving like a plum' to find it. Maybe I should've been 'pushing on' 100% of the time.

 

[Advikaz]

Mine was fully decatted with an RS Tuning map and the flat spot was quite noticable. It used to be worse when you were slowing for a roundabout or similar and it was clear, then you'd get back on the power at about 2000rpm and it really used to bog down. It would also happen if you were in 5th or 6th behind something at lowish revs and they'd pull over and you'd want to accelerate away.

You can drive round it, but you certainly don't have to be 'driving like a plum' to find it. Maybe I should've been 'pushing on' 100% of the time.

See for me, pulling in the wrong gear is driving like a plum. We all know you have to work these engines, theres bugger all down the bottom end anyway.

Just change down - problem solved.

 

[jon_r]

2 to 2750 rpm isn't in the wrong gear. Not everyone wants to drive like a 17 year old in McDonalds carpark 24/7.

I'm not saying it's not a reason not to buy the car btw as they are great in the right circumstances, but to say it isn't noticeable is (imo) wrong.

 

[not normal dan]

Mine was fully decatted with an RS Tuning map and the flat spot was quite noticable. It used to be worse when you were slowing for a roundabout or similar and it was clear, then you'd get back on the power at about 2000rpm and it really used to bog down. It would also happen if you were in 5th or 6th behind something at lowish revs and they'd pull over and you'd want to accelerate away.

You can drive round it, but you certainly don't have to be 'driving like a plum' to find it. Maybe I should've been 'pushing on' 100% of the time.

Doesn't decatting them increase enhance the flat spot?

If I was just tootling around the flat spot wasn't really a problem for me and like said its only a matter of dropping a gear and keeping the revs up when you want to drive round it if you decide to push on.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

See MPG isn't a massive issue, as said I think the 182 over estimates sometimes , and I never bought my 182 with the hopes that it'll do 40mpg all day long !

Same me goes for the 197 I aren't expecting it to be awesome on fuel!

Ive heard about bout the revised boxes , what are they like to fit ? And acquire ? I'm a mechanic myself so labour isn't a issue just part costs !

Well has anybody any experience with Fastchips map on these ? And that's my concern Jon that it's going to be annoying around them times! Is it really that hard to live with though ?

I don't drive like a hooligan 70% of the time I'm pottering and the odd occasion I like to let it work up

 

[Chapppers11]

Definitely not worth ignoring the 197/200 because of the flatspot/mpg. They are great cars and more refined than a 1*2.

There's also a little recent 'fix' for the flat spot, was considering posting it up but it's here to see.

http://www.clio197.net/forum/showthread.php?38297-Possible-fix-for-the-dreaded-FLAT-SPOT

Cable tied mine and it seems to have worked!

 

[jon_r]

Yeah I believe decatting / removing the centre silencing does make it worse. If I have another it's staying completely standard.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Definitely not worth ignoring the 197/200 because of the flatspot/mpg. They are great cars and more refined than a 1*2.

There's also a little recent 'fix' for the flat spot, was considering posting it up but it's here to see.

http://www.clio197.net/forum/showthread.php?38297-Possible-fix-for-the-dreaded-FLAT-SPOT

Cable tied mine and it seems to have worked!

Awesome mate thank you !

Yeah I believe decatting / removing the centre silencing does make it worse. If I have another it's staying completely standard.

Cheers jon something to think about anyway

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Definitely not worth ignoring the 197/200 because of the flatspot/mpg. They are great cars and more refined than a 1*2.

There's also a little recent 'fix' for the flat spot, was considering posting it up but it's here to see.

http://www.clio197.net/forum/showthread.php?38297-Possible-fix-for-the-dreaded-FLAT-SPOT

Cable tied mine and it seems to have worked!

Won't let me see the link do you have to be a paid up member ? Haven't got around to it yet !

 

[RSTuning]

It can be completely mapped out, took a long time to find and fix but it is possible

 

[Beasley Clio182]

It can be completely mapped out, took a long time to find and fix but it is possible

Fantastic that's exactly what I wanted to hear looks like I'll be taking a trip down your way if it's purchased from a mechanics point if view I couldn't see why it was impossible !

Is is it the back pressure that's highlights the flat spot or just like the 182s cold map bad fueling ?

 

[Chapppers11]

Won't let me see the link do you have to be a paid up member ? Haven't got around to it yet !

I think there is a free membership option. You may not be able to see certain subforums though!

It can be completely mapped out, took a long time to find and fix but it is possible

Sounds like the best fix! I'm hoping to get involved in the remap group buy on 197.net.

What kind of benefits do you usually get from mapping 197/200s?

 

[Beasley Clio182]

I think there is a free membership option. You may not be able to see certain subforums though

Im part of the free members iirc , I will join in full when/if I've purchased one

 

[jon_r]

If that fix on 197.net works then that's saved all the hassle. Essentially it's saying the O rings on the MAP sensor don't seal air getting in round it, so seal it up better or fix it down using a cable tie. I'd say it's a load of rubbish, but they've had 18 pages of positive results! Crazy.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

If that fix on 197.net works then that's saved all the hassle. Essentially it's saying the O rings on the MAP sensor don't seal air getting in round it, so seal it up better or fix it down using a cable tie. I'd say it's a load of rubbish, but they've had 18 pages of positive results! Crazy.

Right thanks ! Seams a crazy one that , but hard to argue with 18 pages of results maybe this combined with the RS tuning map is a positive start to rectifying this issue !

I'm really pulled towards them, I think they are smart looking cars and apparently a good chassis too! Admittedly it may never have the 'raw' feeling of a 182 but like Jon , if I dislike it that much ill but a low miles trophy !

 

[Advikaz]

2 to 2750 rpm isn't in the wrong gear. Not everyone wants to drive like a 17 year old in McDonalds carpark 24/7.

I'm not saying it's not a reason not to buy the car btw as they are great in the right circumstances, but to say it isn't noticeable is (imo) wrong.

So 5th to 6th gear @ under 3k revs & you expect it to pull alright?

Fair enough.

 

[jon_r]

I didn't say that at all, but now I think about it 3k revs in 5th is about 40mph, so yes it should 'pull alright'.

I'm not talking about driving at 10/10ths here, i'm talking about making progress within the speed limits.

 

[Advikaz]

I didn't say that at all, but now I think about it 3k revs in 5th is about 40mph, so yes it should 'pull alright'.

I guess we see things differently. I'd not expect it to pull all that well at those revs in that gear, but that's just me.

 

[Saul]

I went from 197 to 172 cup and as far as MPG is concerned there is actually a decent difference! About 10 Mpg..

As said If I was to 'upgrade' I wouldn't be looking for a 197, something totally different. I liked my 197 for various reasons, incredibly easy to drive fast was one of them! But for the money a good one is I'd be looking elsewhere, I'd probably go for an R26 if you don't mind it's derrière haha! They're an incredibly good price for what they offer!

 

[RSTuning]

There's more than one issue on them i think, the other could indeed be related to the map sensor but one is 100% caused by changing the exhaust, it looks like they are going very lean on a wideband but it's not a fuelling issue!

 

[Knuckles]

Afaik, removing the silencer doesn't affect the flatspot... Decatting it will

its an annoyance yeah, but you only notice it when pulling away/wanting to pick up speed in the wrong gear.

I find the electric throttle far more annoying than the flat spot, you have to properly t**t the accelerator to match revs. Although this you get used to

 

[Beasley Clio182]

There's more than one issue on them i think, the other could indeed be related to the map sensor but one is 100% caused by changing the exhaust, it looks like they are going very lean on a wideband but it's not a fuelling issue!

Ahh right ! That's fair enough , I thought it would have been , but as long as it can be mapped out I'm quite happy ! no harm in putting a cable tie around the MAP won't do any harm at all

 

[Dan519]

it's a pig to get rid of. it's basically lean on acceleration, but not on static load (a bi-product of emissions regulations, IMO at least) The trouble with this is, if you add fuel at static points, the lambda sensor trims it out, and you end up with long term trim values outside spec, so the full throttle fueling is leaned out. Glad to be converting mine to a Canems ECU to be honest, much nicer to fine tune

 

[RSTuning]

As i said above, its nothing to do with fuel or accel fuel. I can leave all the fuel related tables stock and still get rid of the flat spot

 

[Kelv]

shame you cant do this as a file that can be uploaded to the car myself, as you are far from on my door step.
ive just given the 197 to the misses, and it would be nice to have this little flat spot ironed out so she hasn't got to worry about it.

 

[RSTuning]

I can but it works out fairly expensive for a map this way:

http://www.rstuning.co.uk/remote-ecu-remapping-c-131/fastchip-rs-tuner-rs-tuning-slave-p-196.html

 

[Kelv]

Would the stage one map that comes pre loaded on that bit of kit, be the map that would cure the flat spot?

 

[mi16chris]

My 200 has no flat spot at all and a full akrapovic system fitted great cars I've not looked back from getting out of my 210hp 182 tbh

 

[RSTuning]

Would the stage one map that comes pre loaded on that bit of kit, be the map that would cure the flat spot?

There's no pre-set map for them.

I would have to send you a base map for you to log and we would revise the cal to suit. Will take several versions to get perfect.

 

[Chapppers11]

Afaik, removing the silencer doesn't affect the flatspot... Decatting it will

its an annoyance yeah, but you only notice it when pulling away/wanting to pick up speed in the wrong gear.

I find the electric throttle far more annoying than the flat spot, you have to properly tw*t the accelerator to match revs. Although this you get used to

Seems to be quite a bit worse since having the KTec system fitted on mine, not decatted.

I forget about how silly the throttle pedal is for that as well!

There's no pre-set map for them.

I would have to send you a base map for you to log and we would revise the cal to suit. Will take several versions to get perfect.

Far from ideal then!

 

[Knuckles]

Don't get me started on the throttle lol

the 197/200 lads went through a phase of fitting a box (which was meant to improve throttle response) in between the the throttle and the loom which told the ecu that a slight amount of throttle was 50% throttle. Many sold on a week later, one lad couldn't get the throttle off on the motorway lol!

 

[Sir_Dave]

My 197 didnt have a flat spot, it had a black hole. Meant that i either had to rag it like a vtec, or get overtaken by 320d's.

Personally, if you want something newer, buy a mini. I've got Renaultsport in my veins, but everything after the 1*2 is quite frankly flawed. Drive a 197 extensively, dont just rag it on a test drive - where you wont notice all the day to day problems with its (lack of) power delivery.

For whats its worth, in the GP (& the normal mcs), i can pull from 1.5k rpm in 6th, with no hesitation or flatspots.

 

[Chapppers11]

I nearly went with an MCS but the prices aren't comparable to 197/200's imo.

My fully-spec'd 200 with 12k and 2 years old was just over £11k from Steve at R-Sport.

Dick Lovett had a non-JCW R53 with saggy leather and 60k for £12k.