To cam or not to cam that is the question

[Sidders]

Hi all
Decided Iam getting my belts done is it worth paying the extra 500 odd squid to get the cat cams from ED.

If I do go cams is this going to be a never ending journey or valve springs and valves ect.

Thoughts

 

[bloke]

197 cams are worth doing if you want to save a few bob.

 

[Sidders]

What tuners are offering packages with 197 cams or do you need to source and find a tuner.

 

[masekwm]

What is your longterm plan for the car? If you have any wish to ever go for boost, then you'll need to go for belts again.

If staying NA then a nice set of second hand 438s would be a good choice

 

[Aydon182]

Id definitely go for 438 catcams in your position, they yield great results for n/a tuning. 15-20 bhp with a nice map to suit and nice driveability.
Not sure what you mean by never ending journey with new valves or valve springs, modifying in general is a never ending journey youll always want more power if youre a car nut, but as for if cams will require you to need additional parts then no, they dont need any supporting mods, just a nice free flowing exhaust presuming you have one

 

[Sidders]

Id definitely go for 438 catcams in your position, they yield great results for n/a tuning. 15-20 bhp with a nice map to suit and nice driveability.
Not sure what you mean by never ending journey with new valves or valve springs, modifying in general is a never ending journey youll always want more power if youre a car nut, but as for if cams will require you to need additional parts then no, they dont need any supporting mods, just a nice free flowing exhaust presuming you have one

When I refer to never ending journey I mean I don’t want to put cams in to start chasing failing components due to installing them.

 

[Sidders]

What is your longterm plan for the car? If you have any wish to ever go for boost, then you'll need to go for belts again.

If staying NA then a nice set of second hand 438s would be a good choice

Long term is To stay NA

 

[imprezaworks]

@JB21

 

[Aydon182]

When I refer to never ending journey I mean I don’t want to put cams in to start chasing failing components due to installing them.

So long as you dont have jack the lad from your local scrapyard fit them, youll be golden :up:

 

[bloke]

197 cams, top secret cam timing and mapped at efi
black was the car on standard map and cams

 

[Sidders]

197 cams, top secret cam timing and mapped at efi
black was the car on standard map and camsView attachment 1354038

That’s impressive How competative would this be against the ED package 2 any ball park figures from people who have had them.

 

[bloke]

price wise or power sorry?

 

[Sidders]

My bad pricing
Looks to put perform the ED package

 

[bloke]

what's the ed price all in?

 

[Sidders]

what's the ed price all in?

£1230 all in spec is as attached

 

[Sidders]

Here sorry

 

[imprezaworks]

Set of 197 cams £200?
Belts £500
Map £160

£900 ish

 

[JamesBryan]

Set of 197 cams £200?
Belts £500
Map £160

£900 ish

£250 for a custom map iirc.

 

[imprezaworks]

At efi?

 

[JamesBryan]

At efi?

Yeah, the cheaper price is just for a basic map for basic mods. Anything else is more iirc.

 

[imprezaworks]

Ah yeah course.

 

[Aydon182]

173 lb/ft - 35 lb/ft gain in torque from 197 cams? looks suspect

 

[JB21]

Why bother with catcams at £500+ when you can get similar results with 197 cams for £300 cheaper. For a similar price of the ED package on my 182 I had my belts done, Inc aircon delete, head work due to a few bent valves, oil service, EPAS conversion and a few other bits all mapped at EFI and this gave the below results on the same rollers as the above with just fatty induction and scorpion exhaust and decat. It's all in the timing, so my advice forget ED and go see @bloke.

 

[Sidders]

Why bother with catcams at £500+ when you can get similar results with 197 cams for £300 cheaper. For a similar price of the ED package on my 182 I had my belts done, Inc aircon delete, head work due to a few bent valves, oil service, EPAS conversion and a few other bits all mapped at EFI and this gave the below results on the same rollers as the above with just fatty induction and scorpion exhaust and decat. It's all in the timing, so my advice forget ED and go see @bloke.View attachment 1354044

Did you source your own cams ir purchase it as a package ?

 

[JB21]

Did you source your own cams ir purchase it as a package ?

Drive in, drive out package mate.

 

[bloke]

173 lb/ft - 35 lb/ft gain in torque from 197 cams? looks suspect

graph can't lie, even if you ignore the figures and scale it the percentage gain still remains the same. was also touch under 30 gain fwir.

 

[Aydon182]

Why bother with catcams at £500+ when you can get similar results with 197 cams for £300 cheaper. For a similar price of the ED package on my 182 I had my belts done, Inc aircon delete, head work due to a few bent valves, oil service, EPAS conversion and a few other bits all mapped at EFI and this gave the below results on the same rollers as the above with just fatty induction and scorpion exhaust and decat. It's all in the timing, so my advice forget ED and go see @bloke.View attachment 1354044

That's interesting that when 197 cams were discovered back when Micheal Woodford tested them he gained about 8 bhp peak from them , and then many people followed in his footsteps they also yielded similar results of around 10 bhp gain from 197 cams, and they were known as a slight increase in power because they weren't that much more aggressive than the standard cams in 1*2s, but nowadays they yield much better results than Schrick, 421s and 438s even though if you look at the profiling of the camshafts they are way more aggressive than 197 cams.

What I'm trying to say is, get your car on a dyno Dynamics roller, I guarantee it's not making in the 170s of torque, 197 cams do not yield the same results as 438s or 421s.

 

[JP83]

197 cams, top secret cam timing and mapped at efi
black was the car on standard map and camsView attachment 1354038

Are you running the Turkish inlet too?

I still have mine to fit, but I'm thinking I'll leave it now till the belts are due, and do that, cams and mapping all at once.

 

[Greeny.]

That's interesting that when 197 cams were discovered back when Micheal Woodford tested them he gained about 8 bhp peak from them , and then many people followed in his footsteps they also yielded similar results of around 10 bhp gain from 197 cams, and they were known as a slight increase in power because they weren't that much more aggressive than the standard cams in 1*2s, but nowadays they yield much better results than Schrick, 421s and 438s even though if you look at the profiling of the camshafts they are way more aggressive than 197 cams.

What I'm trying to say is, get your car on a dyno Dynamics roller, I guarantee it's not making in the 170s of torque, 197 cams do not yield the same results as 438s or 421s.

Magic special super secret timing causes it apparently, however as with most fads and small tuning company’s on the forum they all come and go so I’m sure this isnt any different, despite people loving the bandwagon as always [emoji4]

No offence to anyone but I would personally go with a known package and company with properly ‘uprated’ cams rather than a cheaper alternative with random timing, especially as it’s a fairly expensive purchase (for a Clio).

 

[JB21]

That's interesting that when 197 cams were discovered back when Micheal Woodford tested them he gained about 8 bhp peak from them , and then many people followed in his footsteps they also yielded similar results of around 10 bhp gain from 197 cams, and they were known as a slight increase in power because they weren't that much more aggressive than the standard cams in 1*2s, but nowadays they yield much better results than Schrick, 421s and 438s even though if you look at the profiling of the camshafts they are way more aggressive than 197 cams.

What I'm trying to say is, get your car on a dyno Dynamics roller, I guarantee it's not making in the 170s of torque, 197 cams do not yield the same results as 438s or 421s.

Guessing you're an ED customer trying to justify paying daft amounts of cash for work which could have been done a lot cheaper elsewhere?

And why would I go out of my way and actually pay them to use their rollers just to satisfy you.

Also I don't need a dyno graph to tell me my car has changed as the seat of my pants can tell me more than any piece of paper can and the change in performance after the above work was night and day over the OE set up, not to mention the results it produced on track and with that I'm satisfied with the results the 197 cams have produced.

 

[imprezaworks]

Spend lots of money, dead fast, like really fast.

Spend less money and get the same result. Yeah it’s quick mate.

 

[Greeny.]

Guessing you're an ED customer trying to justify paying daft amounts of cash for work which could have been done a lot cheaper elsewhere?

And why would I go out of my way and actually pay them to use their rollers just to satisfy you.

Also I don't need a dyno graph to tell me my car has changed as the seat of my pants can tell me more than any piece of paper can and the change in performance after the above work was night and day over the OE set up, not to mention the results it produced on track and with that I'm satisfied with the results the 197 cams have produced.

And likewise you’re going to defend your purchase...

End of the day if doesn’t actually matter if you want to spend more or less for essentially the same thing, I very much doubt there will be much between an engine with the super special timing and 197 cams vs catcams, I would just rather get it done ‘properly’ and pay abit more, but as always each to their own really.

 

[Stay Puft]

I'm not a customer of either so no bias.. but why does paying more money mean it's done 'properly'?

 

[imprezaworks]

Exactly, each to their own.

Most base the choice on cost, trust, word of mouth etc.

 

[Sidders]

Ok so I assume bloke runs a tuning company but his profile suggest he’s an extra in breaking bad.

Are the 197 cams provided new or used ? Guaranteed items ?

I’ve opened a can of worms all be it very interesting can.

 

[Greeny.]

I'm not a customer of either so no bias.. but why does paying more money mean it's done 'properly'?

I would rather use a known company with a known good reputation with new uprated parts rather than second hands cams fitted by a bloke I know nothing about from the forum, but again, each to their own.

 

[Stay Puft]

I would rather use a known company with a known good reputation with new uprated parts rather than second hands cams fitted by a bloke from the forum, but again, each to their own.

But EFI are a known tuning company?

 

[Greeny.]

But EFI are a known tuning company?

They map it?

 

[imprezaworks]

Yeah. So essentially you are paying and trusting someone to do the work, then efi to map.

 

[Stay Puft]

Yes.. exactly, the important part imo. I think any backstreet mechanic can fit a set of cams, let alone a mechanic who specialises with clios and has a huge amount of positive feedback on here and FB.. just like ED do.