182 cup
What’s the business that Bloke runs called?
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To cam or not to cam that is the question
- Thread starter Sidders
- Start date
The super secret cam timing thing is a piss take, it's easy to work out how to time them but it was always kept a 'secret '
When I made my timing tool for them and Chris mapped the first one the timing was obviously slightly different to any he's done before, timed by himself, Andy Greer and others as well, never bothered to actually check what it turned out at as it can only be about a degree is so off what it was meant to be.
That one was matched inlets, epas, 182 down pipe, think milltek exhaust and aircon delete.
Nope, mapping is done by Chris at efi, I just Chuck them in. His rollers aren't exactly known for exagurating figures.
Not seen breaking bad so don't know if that's a compliment or a piss take :wink:
When I made my timing tool for them and Chris mapped the first one the timing was obviously slightly different to any he's done before, timed by himself, Andy Greer and others as well, never bothered to actually check what it turned out at as it can only be about a degree is so off what it was meant to be.
That one was matched inlets, epas, 182 down pipe, think milltek exhaust and aircon delete.
Nope, mapping is done by Chris at efi, I just Chuck them in. His rollers aren't exactly known for exagurating figures.
Not seen breaking bad so don't know if that's a compliment or a piss take :wink:
Well its a no brainer, only 500 notes, just get it done, they lack power so will make it more exciting to drive
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Wish my belts were due lol
Stay Puft
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172
No idea, never used him, I just know he has great feedback and always trys to help people on here.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Have a 197'd and aftermarket cammed car ever been on a dyno back-to-back? I know there would still be plenty of room for discrepancy, but it would be interesting to see the curves.
For it to be as accurate as possible you'd have to use the same car, seen them vary by 10bhp on same rollers on same day.
If you didn't do it on the same car someone would pipe up and say the results didn't count.
182 cup
I see the logic in this statement but I manage /monitor numerous construction contractors all the ones ive had problems with are hiding behind a corporate image. The smaller family run ones tend to have served me better so I wouldn’t discount small businesses straight off the bat .
I'm an ED customer but not for cams, N/A tuning is lame imo, im also a k-tec customer, kamracing customer, demon tweeks customer, pure motorsport customer, ive bought things from just about every place that sells aftermarket things for clios over the years. I just looked on ED's website and its quite a steep price £1400 odd? for 438's, i remember people was getting them fitted and mapped for just over 1k, i guess inflation happened (or something?)
Regarding the dyno, it was more for your own benefit than mine, but each to their own, i guess you wouldn't mind if someone just sprayed your belts with some wd40 because it would look shiney and new, so that means it is! or you wouldn't mind paying money for new discs, just so the garage would resurface your originals cuz ''you could feel in your bum the car stops harder'' i personally prefer a bit more hard evidence on what im paying for.
if you do a bit of research or call some other renault specialists, k-tec, ED , 519? they'l all tell you, 197 cams wont make the power 438s make to suggest they make a 35 lb/ft gain in torque would suggest they are by far the best off the shelf cams available on the market, which isnt true.
Food for thought. Mine's currently on EPAS, with AC delete, and it currently boasts some stainless turbo rubbish exhaust. 😂
I do have a 182 downpipe (with link pipe for the 172 system), and the SM Inlet to fit. Cams might add to the fun.
PH2 172
That`s a damned good question.
I can`t pin down the part numbers, but US$25 a piece if you want to order 50.
http://runrun.en.made-in-china.com/product/PXCQRgjuHpkz/China-Camshaft-7700108610-for-Renault.html
Yeah that's me, cut corners in everything I do to my Clio...STFU you muppet!
I’m pretty sure the best evidence is how the car feels?? I’m also sure it’s been mentioned about the car having some supporting mods. Matched inlets etc which really do make a difference. Even on mine with full system and induction the car ran 177bhp 154ft/lb. I’ll be getting @bloke to fit my 197 cams in a few months time after everything I’ve read on here. There’s only a few select specialists I’d take the Clio to and I’d much prefer to support a small business rather than a company with all the overheads.
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Tbf ed havnt done anything wrong and also have a really good rep so lets not start a tuner bashing session, ed are obviously a good business and good at what they do, so is bloke.
Why all the hate, go with and who you prefer and which package you think suits you more.
Simple.
Why all the hate, go with and who you prefer and which package you think suits you more.
Simple.
Good response, i was hoping you could of actually come back with some factual evidence but instead you're just an unintelligent clown.
To the OP , i would suggest instead of believing anything anyone has said in this thread to influence your decision against what cams to get, simply do a google search followed by ''cliosport'' and you will literally be able to find tonnes of posts from old project threads etc on this website of people who have dynographs of their experiences with 438 cams, 421s and 197 cams.
Youll quickly come to the conclusion that, 197 cams have never yielded these results on anyone elses dyno other than this EFI dyno. And i would definately go ahead and say that its not so much as the dyno being bad, its been tampered with, as the before readings of 170 odd bhp and 145-150ish peak torque is very realistic and normal of what a standard clio would be making.
If you also do some research youll see that the only real way of getting into the 170-180 lb/ft torque range is with ITB's N/A
I get where you are coming from, its probably the most important factor for the consumer on how the car actually feels yes, but is it the best ''evidence'' ? of course not , most people cant physically feel a 10 bhp change in horse power, and human mind can easily be corrupted with placebos, if you believe something is going to be better you will subconsciously feel that it is better.
Plugging it into a machine to give you an actual reading of what the power is the best evidence (or closer to evidence)
You could jump in a random persons car and make a judgement of what you ''feel'' the power to be, so for instance you could get in a 800 bhp skyline not knowing the power figure, do you think you would correctly guess it to be 800 bhp? you might think it feels like 1000, or 600. but 9 times out of 10, the dyno is going to be the best evidence of what the car is truely making, right?
Here's some factual evidence, you're narrow minded plant pot who thinks just because YOU don't believe something in right then it isn't.
Actually, i didn't say that 197 cams dont make that power in the dyno, and because thats my opinion its fact. I remember quoting multiple sources on people who havent had as much luck, and ways you can research up other peoples experience with 197 cams. Do you even have logical brain function?
I also form my own opinions about things, and research to see if the evidence backs up my opinion, like when i see a singular dynograph saying 197 can make 173 lb/ft and i decide to look up multiple previous cases to see if that trend is true. You are told by one person that 197 cams are great and here you are telling people ''why would you pay 400 more for 438s when 197 cams do the same thing'' showing youve never even bothered to research anything about either, doesnt that make you the narrow minded one?
Also, can you actually respond to me on the topic of cars? not try to start attacking someone personally, for one it just means the thread will get locked, and two, it just shows you lost any form of argument a long time ago.
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
You know he has 197 cams fitted?
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Well this thread has gone to poop a bit hasn't it. Shame, could be an interesting topic.
Agreed, but it would be interesting to see a few curves. There will always be discrepancies, but that's life.
Agreed, but it would be interesting to see a few curves. There will always be discrepancies, but that's life.
Me? yes mate, he posted previously saying he did with his dynograph which read 171 lb/ft , what im saying is, i believe that dyno chart to be incorrect. and its more of a ''pop'' (or not really) at either the dyno or the dyno operator. He's taking it personally because im refuting the power his pride and joy has made.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Well, seeing as @bloke is effectively representing EFI in this discussion, have any of his 197'd cars been on any other dynos? While there will always be discrepancy for a million-and-one factors, it might show if there are any trends.
Alternatively, we could all just have a biscuit and relax about it...
Alternatively, we could all just have a biscuit and relax about it...
You are literally an oldbie , youve been around here forever (no offense :tonguewink: ) But dont you remember the old threads when 197 cams first came around? they were making 8-10 bhp peak gains and 5-6 lb/ft on several cars, chip-mk1's included. i could probably find posts of you posting in those exact threads lol.
Arent you wondering why 197 cams are now making 25 bhp gain with 30 lb/ft torque gain? on one specific dyno? Or have you just never really been interested in figures?
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Never really been that interested in figures. I mean yeah to a point if the car is healthy and making strong figures, happy days.
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Thought you had stopped drinking
I started again.
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Ok. Let the thread continue....
bloke did actually say, he fits the cams, and efi maps them, so to make it clear, im not refuting ANYTHING bloke has said, or his ability. im just making the point 438 > 197 cams and its shown on multiple different dynographs to be the case. IF anything, Buy 438s and have bloke fit them for you.
If i hadnt of chimed in on this thread, im sure the OP would be under the impression that you could pay 400 or whatever less on 197 cams and have the same gains (or even more) than 438 cams.
Its not the case im afraid, if budget is of importance, then 197 cams can give you a nice little increase in bhp and torque, if you dont mind paying a bit extra, you can get a hotter cam which will yield you a bit more power and torque.
You get what you pay for
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Hasn't he said that he times them differently to how other people have in the past? So, regardless of the debate surrounding the plausibility of the peak dyno figures in isolation, it may not be relevant to compare previous results directly to his results.
I'm not trying to come down on either side of the fence, just interested in some comparisons. As far as its possible to compare dyno numbers anyway.
I'm not trying to come down on either side of the fence, just interested in some comparisons. As far as its possible to compare dyno numbers anyway.
+1, as what has already be stated, it might be down to the secret timing, maybe if @bloke has fitted 438’s to a clio, he might have secret timing on these too which might make 200+hp? If the 438’s are supposedly more aggressive acheiving more power?
Stay Puft
ClioSport Club Member
Clio 172
'Its not the case im afraid' - you can't factually say that can you?
Final thoughts on this irrespective of figures. I'm happy with the car and the results that matter to me, which is purely track progression. It felt like a different car last time out due to more grunt coming out of the bends and down the straights. For me though It's how it's delivered and the extra rev range which makes it feel so different. Knocked 3s of my previous best lap time so that for me is good enough.
toyosport manifold?
i love it as soon as anyone gets decent figures 'dyno is out'
will see if i can find it but i've got a graph from ed and one from efi, same engine and ecu but in different car, fwir they wer within a couple of bhp of each other. if anything chris' is the other way round, seen more people especially on rolling road days, disappointed with the figures his gives. think there is also on i retimed that's got a graph from efi and somewhere else, can't think where the other place was though sorry.
it's the internet, that ain't going to happen :tonguewink:
No, original 182 one.
No worries. No the link pipe is a bolt in type I think. Ktec jobby perhaps?
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