Trackday Claim for hitting another car

[...]

Not you mate, I'm not getting the rolling bit. You're right he should have stayed in the car. Totally get what you've said. Unless Riz means you did well to avoid it, I don't know lol.

hence why i asked what the hell he was on about .....LOL

 

[riz]

I was just on about the Caterham driver who went rolling out of the car when it got hit by the silver car.... Bloody scary


Sorry I thought you were in the caterham.

 

[...]

No ... not a problem I was the second car who avoided it all .....

 

[Tony Hunter]

Track day insurance.

Sort these baby's out.

 

[Craigie-B]

Did any one else read this from the ph post:



Neither MSV nor any other Relevant Person shall be liable for any loss, damage, claims, costs, expenses, injury or demands suffered directly or indirectly by
me as a consequence of my attendance at or participation in this Activity provided that nothing in this form shall exclude any Relevant Person’s liability for
personal injury or death caused by its negligence. I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.




I shall reimburse MSV and other Relevant Persons against any loss or liability suffered by them as a result
of my error, default, act or omission.


Has been sneaked in - imvho. Basically if I make a mistake I am liable for it. No more MSV for me.

 

[DaveDreads]

Found this in their terms and conditions.

The English courts will have exclusive jurisdiction over any dispute or claim arising from or related to these terms and conditions
(and the documents referred to in them) and/or attendance at the venue.
These terms and conditions (and the documents referred to in them) are governed by English law.

 

[Martin.]

MSV track days no more then!

Really hope something gets sorted! Surely the TDO can't sit back and just let this happen. They will be out of business..

 

[...]

MSV track days no more then!

Really hope something gets sorted! Surely the TDO can't sit back and just let this happen. They will be out of business..

You are all being very naive here , you do realise your responsible for barrier damage etc at any uk track , seen bills dished out by donny before , msv obviously do , and i can tell you Donny were doing it 6 years ago ,so i doubt if the others weren't

Its just like the ring , most euro tracks are the same and its all at the tracks discression

 

[McGherkin]

Don't knock it till you try it I know plenty of hillclimb and sprint guys who have more than enough budget to race or do many trackdays but they choose not to so it can't be all that bad

You NEED more than a race budget lol.

 

[Dan@SJM]

You are all being very naive here , you do realise your responsible for barrier damage etc at any uk track , seen bills dished out by donny before , msv obviously do , and i can tell you Donny were doing it 6 years ago ,so i doubt if the others weren't

Its just like the ring , most euro tracks are the same and its all at the tracks discression

Castle Combe your not responsible for any costs.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Don't knock it till you try it I know plenty of hillclimb and sprint guys who have more than enough budget to race or do many trackdays but they choose not to so it can't be all that bad

I've had a couple of goes just in mickey mouse local stuff but it just is 99% standing around and 1% driving, which bores me, and the fact I get to compare times with someone else doesnt make up for that.

I had the same concerns before trying it. On paper the price per track mile/ time is extortionate but its completely different to track days. Because youre against the clock and competing against others its brilliant fun.

Because you do so few laps and therefore very little wear on tyres, brakes etc its very cheap motorsport. I sprint and do track days as both are great fun.

There is certainly a competitive element to it that is missing from trackdays so if that is the main thing you want not the driving then it makes sense, but personally I like the amount of seat time that I get on trackdays and for me personally having an official time from a few laps instead of enjoying driving 50 laps wouldnt be enough to make up for the lack of seat time, but I agree on the cheap side of it my car would see less use in a seaons sprints than in one good trackday, so it certainly cuts down on wear and tear!

 

[...]

Not a huge amount of armco at combe but just because they havnt charged you does not mean they couldnt

 

[Dan@SJM]

I did ask if I have to pay for the Armco when I was in the ambulance, the Marshall replied no, no one has to. But like you said it could be the case if someone does a lot of damage say including the safety fence along the pits, they wouldn't charge.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Not a huge amount of armco at combe

Its round the whole outside IIRC, so its a fair bit? Although none on the inside, but most big crashes are to the outside anyway of course, tangent of the curve and all that lol.

but just because they havnt charged you does not mean they couldnt

I know a lot of people who have crashed at combe and I dont know any who have been charged, so although maybe they "could" they certainly dont seem to do so.

 

[...]

Its round the whole outside IIRC, so its a fair bit? Although none on the inside, but most big crashes are to the outside anyway of course, tangent of the curve and all that lol.





I know a lot of people who have crashed at combe and I dont know any who have been charged, so although maybe they "could" they certainly dont seem to do so.

thats the issue , the fact they could , i know Brands and Donny have definitely , spa also definitely and we know they do at the Ring .

 

[mark123]

MSV track days no more then!

Really hope something gets sorted! Surely the TDO can't sit back and just let this happen. They will be out of business..

I bet they all say similar. Have you read the small print?

 

[mark123]

And with respect to barriers etc, in racing you are covered by the MSA but you are liable for their excess (I know this for a fact in rallying I assume it is the same thoughout).

It is rarely done though, normally the organisers just cover it, but they can ask you for it if they want to. A rally I helped organise they decided they would ask a guy who did some damage for some cash as he was minted.

 

[...]

They do say similar .....

None of this is new except an insurer actually going after someone .

Was the same with the ring and then they went after someone and all hell broke loose .... people still do the ring without cover ....

I would like to actually see the court report as there is a solid reason they went for it , and until thats seen then nobody but those involved know

 

[p@blo]

They do say similar .....

None of this is new except an insurer actually going after someone .

Was the same with the ring and then they went after someone and all hell broke loose .... people still do the ring without cover ....

I would like to actually see the court report as there is a solid reason they went for it , and until thats seen then nobody but those involved know

Be interesting to hear a little more on the verdict.

What's the legal standpoint for participants in timed/competitive events where there's a greater likelihood of contact? Could an individual wind up in the exact same situation of being sued for damages to another participants vehicle, or would the 'competitive element' have some bearing on any dispute?

Also, don't many of the typical trackday insurance policy held by 'Driver A' typically stipulate an event must not be competitive/timed? What of the TDO's that have recently been running timed events, wouldn't this render the typical 'trackday insurance policy' null & void or would you still be open to being sued should you be involved in a prang with something expensive?

 

[...]

All trackday policies state no timing ... from a legal standpoint a competitor could sue another for personal injury but I think the msa would stop damahe to vehicle claims ..... personal injury cases happen in sport all the time ... rugby has particular issues with this at the moment

 

[p@blo]

So presumably someone could bring a litigation action against you for personal injury &/or property damage irrespective of an event being competitive/non competitive?

Guessing the full blown motorsport policies cover this kind of indemnity similar to a PLI policy?

 

[16v_paddy]

Not looked at the PH thread recently but a from another forum this is being discussed on, this statement has come out

UPDATE:
EIS are a leading track day* (see definition below) insurance broker who arranges
motorsport and track day insurance policies through Chaucer Insurance. Chaucer
Insurance has been underwriting specialist motorsport insurance for 15 years.
REIS offer an accidental damage policy to cover participants for damage to their own
vehicles. The track day fraternity generally accepts that all participants pay for
damage sustained to their own vehicles, regardless of the circumstances and every
participant signs a disclaimer intended to put this principle into effect. However, we
have had our concerns regarding the validity of these disclaimers and their ability to
protect individual track day participants from suing each other in the event of damage
to their vehicles.
In agreement with our policyholder following significant damage to his vehicle
through no fault of his own, we pursued a recovery from a driver who had collided
with our insured’s stationary vehicle on the grass verge just off the track. At the court
hearing last week it was held by the judge that the disclaimer did not protect the track
day participant who caused damage to a vehicle that Chaucer Insurance covered
under a policy arranged through REIS. The participant was ordered to pay for the
damage he had caused to the other vehicle, as a result of his negligence which was
established by the court through CCTV evidence.
In this instance, Chaucer Insurance will not be pursuing the award issued to them by
the county court. Last weeks court case does not set a precedent for any future
actions as the claim was held in a court of 1st Instance.
Now that it has been established that current disclaimers are not protecting track day
participants sufficiently, we have taken legal advice which recommends that the
following clause to be inserted into track day disclaimers:
‘It is a condition of your participation of the activity, or activities, in which you
intend to take part that in the event of accident, loss or damage occurring
during such activity or activities you will not pursue any claim for damages
against any other participant (save in respect of injury or death)’
Under the provisions of the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 it is not possible to
exclude potential liability for injury or death.
If this clause is inserted into all disclaimers and every participant signs the document
prior to commencing the activity then it is the view of our legal opinion that a court
would enforce the clause.
Please be assured that REIS and Chaucer remain committed to a vibrant and
exciting track day market. Implementation of the above clause should ensure that it
remains so.

• A track day is a non-competitive event that allows an individual to drive their vehicle

outside of the Road Traffic Act requirements. There is no racing; lap timing; time,

speed or distance targets; or winners and losers.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

If the above actually happens then that's great!

 

[DaveDreads]

So basically they've shat it at the response from the track day community,
and realised that they could have very easily f*cked up the entire industry and lost a sh*t load of money.

I'll definitely be reading the disclaimer at track days a hell of a lot more carefully in future.

 

[p@blo]

Whats the score with the timed/chronos trackdays in relation to these TD insurance policies the likes of Chaucer & Morris offer? Don't they specify the event musn't be timed/competitive etc similar to a road car policy?

In which case if all TDOs adopted the same format, wouldn't this effectively nullify any counter claims (excluding injury/death obviously) or would there still be grounds to level that kind of a litigation against third parties considered to be at fault?

Rewording of the T&Cs seems a good idea, but what about the additional MSV disclaimer you have to sign for their circuits? Wasn't the wording changed to effectively support litigation action for damages?

 

[McGherkin]

Track days are not timed. Anything else is not actually a track day.

 

[m4tt274]

Does this mean that track day insurance is likely to become compulsory for one and all?

i could well see this being a rule before too long.

Though, im pretty sure it would only be a third party type system. Much like land lords torching their pubs to get refits on the insurance i could see people 'accidentally' running the cars along armco etc to get resprays for the sake of a £250 a day insurance scheme with no knock on effect to their road policy.

 

[Adam G]

Whats the score with the timed/chronos trackdays in relation to these TD insurance policies the likes of Chaucer & Morris offer? Don't they specify the event musn't be timed/competitive etc similar to a road car policy?

In which case if all TDOs adopted the same format, wouldn't this effectively nullify any counter claims (excluding injury/death obviously) or would there still be grounds to level that kind of a litigation against third parties considered to be at fault?

Rewording of the T&Cs seems a good idea, but what about the additional MSV disclaimer you have to sign for their circuits? Wasn't the wording changed to effectively support litigation action for damages?

The only one I know of is MSV's "How Fast". Have to check their regs.
Every other one as far as I know forbids timing.
If this is the real outcome then it's a great result.

 

[p@blo]

Track days are not timed. Anything else is not actually a track day.

What about the focused events 'chrono' trackdays that use transponders to log lap times?

http://www.focusedevents.com/chrono-days-cars.asp

 

[Fred@BTM]

I remember watching a flash prick in a brand new 360CS get thoroughly humiliated by a pink Clio Cup car at Donington a good few years ago

i think that may have been me in the pink car LOL

 

[McGherkin]

What about the focused events 'chrono' trackdays that use transponders to log lap times?

http://www.focusedevents.com/chrono-days-cars.asp

Now I come to think of it, I'll have to check but I seem to remember being allowed to get timings after the event, but onboard or 'current' timing isn't allowed as it gives the driver a realtime incentive to push harder etc. I'll have to look it up again.

 

[16v_paddy]

i think that may have been me in the pink car LOL

Nobby's Nuts written down the side?

 

[Chip-mk1]

i could well see this being a rule before too long.

Though, im pretty sure it would only be a third party type system. Much like land lords torching their pubs to get refits on the insurance i could see people 'accidentally' running the cars along armco etc to get resprays for the sake of a £250 a day insurance scheme with no knock on effect to their road policy.

Would make trackdays too expensive for most people if they had to have 3rd party cover, as that would be VERY expensive, and as far as I am aware currently isnt available at all at any cost.

 

[p@blo]

Weird there isn't some form of policy available for third party indemnity - something akin to PLI in the workplace.

Asked previously but got no answer - what policies are typically used for competitive events?

Seems mental that a trackday could ever be considered a higher degree of risk for damage and/or injury than race/rally/sprint formats.

 

[16v_paddy]

Would make trackdays too expensive for most people if they had to have 3rd party cover, as that would be VERY expensive, and as far as I am aware currently isnt available at all at any cost.

From reading the thread on PH it would seem 3rd party insurance cover at track days on the continent is the norm & only costs something like €25

 

[Chip-mk1]

From reading the thread on PH it would seem 3rd party insurance cover at track days on the continent is the norm & only costs something like €25

I'd certainly be more than happy to pay that, if any UK insurer did similar!

 

[Martin.]

I haven't got time to read through the last 7 pages on the PH thread, can someone who has summarise it pretty please

Or is it just words around the reply from Chaucer as above and that they will be just writing the loss off and not claiming it back. Even though they won in court.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Nobby's Nuts written down the side?

not that i remember, mk1 clio williams shape?

 

[16v_paddy]

not that i remember, mk1 clio williams shape?

No, was a mk2

 

[Steve]

Bump this again, remember the worse case scenario?

Well just happened this weekend.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-24426442

RIP.