Wheels Coming Loose on Track

[CamMoreRon]

Was wondering whether anybody else had had problems with this, or if I'm being fed a load of BS..

I bought a brand new set of 15x7" Team Dynamics PR1.2 several weeks ago, and fitted them for the first time at Oulton Park on the 4th June. I had an absolutely miserable day, as the wheels came loose on all 4 corners after only a few warm-up laps! I had the wheels off & on in the pits 4 times checking everything, and even tried 3mm spacers just to be sure there was clearance, but nothing seemed to work. Eventually I went with 32mm long wheel bolts (26mm supplied by TD) torqued up to something bloody ridiculous and managed to get a few sessions in the afternoon. Even so, the car was wandering and rumbling despite the bolts still being tight! I had noticed the front spigot rings were a very sloppy fit on the hub spigot and there was 0.5 - 1.0mm of movement, but whether that was down to the wheels coming loose, or whether the wheels coming loose was down to the failure of the rings I couldn't be sure; however, it was my hunch that the rings were at fault.

I had an incredibly frustrating phone call to Demon Tweeks the following day, trying to explain to the girl that I had tried everything and that there was nothing wrong with the car.. I won't go in to detail of that too much! But she did eventually agree to have them shipped to TD for inspection. I called to chase a few days later and was told the plastic spigot rings they had supplied were the wrong ones - too short, apparently - and that the wheels would be shipped back to me with the deeper rings fitted.

I had pleaded with Tweeks to get me a new set of wheels with the bores machined directly to fit, without these pathetic little plastic bits, but they refused and assured me it would be ok. My next track day is coming up at the 'ring in 2 weeks, so understandably I am very reluctant to have plastic anywhere near my wheels!

Has anybody had anything similar? Particularly with TD wheels and plastic spacers? I'm going to machine up some aluminium spigot rings just to be safe, but it would be nice to hear any other accounts of wheels repeatedly coming loose.

 

[Cub.]

Tell them you don't want them back, you want a refund and then buy some different wheels which don't require plastic spigot rings.

 

[...]

the right size plastic spigot rings will be fine , but please never torque up track wheels to something silly , they get hot and shatter , i have seen it happen twice !!

FWD cars are critical on the PCD , strangely you don't have such an issue with RWD.

the best option is a wheel with no need for a ring ,but they are less common these days due to multi fitments.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I run td1.2 with the correct spigot rings and they're fine. No issues so far on the road or the 5 track days I've done with them.

 

[Dan@M.A.D]

You can alwasy get aluminium spigot rings but to be honest iv'e had plastic spigots on a few cars and never had any issues...

 

[CamMoreRon]

Tell them you don't want them back, you want a refund and then buy some different wheels which don't require plastic spigot rings.

I had originally said that I wanted them exchanged for OZ Ultraleggera and I would pay the difference, but they refused. They also refused an exchange for a new set with machined bores, and even refused a new set of the originals. The reason I got was that TD have inspected the wheels and found them to be OK.

I'm not taking any chances, so I'll machine some rings up.. luckily I have a lathe and some 6082 bar!

About the bolt torque - I had originally done them up to Renault settings, but in my frustration towards the end of the day I went with 120Nm and then 130Nm to keep them on.

 

[M.C..]

It is common with bolt set up, if you convert to stud and nuts it does help (so I have read), all down to the heat into the hubs.
Mine kept coming loose a few weeks ago at Bedford, after each time out I would check the nut torques sometimes they needed tightening up (110Nm I set mine to)

I would not have thought the spigot rings would be a issue as mine are machined centre bores.

 

[.GAZ.]

Plastic spigot rings melt. I've got aluminium ones on a set of my track wheels and I've never had an issue with them.

 

[.GAZ.]

I run the PMS 73mm stud kit. As long as they're torqued and you use Loctite, they won't budge.

 

[_WILL_]

Maybe get the wheel balance checked as well if they are rumbling even when tight. Not sure why the car would wander if wheels were tight tho?

 

[CamMoreRon]

I got my wheels back last night and had a look at them this evening, they've sent me a new set of the exact same spigot rings they had originally supplied - the ones they told me on the phone were the wrong ones!

I'm at a loss as to what to do now.. if they've lied about that then I wonder if they actually bothered to inspect the wheels at all! I don't know whether to call Demon Tweeks tomorrow to complain and ask that they swap for some OZ's, or to just wash my hands of them altogether and machine up my own aluminium rings!

Nurburgring in 2 weeks and I have zero confidence that these wheels will stay on for a whole lap!

 

[JonC219]

I wouldn't have thought the spigot rings would cause issues

I forgot the spigots one track day and ran without all day (too large centre bore) and had no issues

 

[CamMoreRon]

Maybe get the wheel balance checked as well if they are rumbling even when tight. Not sure why the car would wander if wheels were tight tho?

The spigot rings were sloppy on the hubs by 0.5-1.0mm so it was impossible to get the wheels centralised.. It was vibrating at speed as if the balance weights had all fallen off and wandering.. not excessively but noticeably, though it could have just been my paranoia!

 

[FLOBALOB]

I wouldn't have thought the spigot rings would cause issues

I forgot the spigots one track day and ran without all day (too large centre bore) and had no issues

^This, I agree. I've run without spigots before with no issues. Clio bolts are tapered as should be the wheel holes , so as you tighten the bolts in the correct order and the correct way, the wheels should naturally centralise.
I always have to nip my bolts up after 8-10 laps on track as the heat gets to them but after that they usually last all day without touching again.

 

[Mini182]

It unlikely to be the spigot rings, they are there as more of a guide and don't really do anything once the wheel bolts are tight, particularly the plastic ones.

It is quite common on clios for the wheel bolts to come loose on track. 2 things you can do.

Use a dremel or something to grind away the paint on the bolt wells of the wheels to leave a rough finish, this will help the bolts grip better.

Or change to a stud and nut setup.


Don't try and solve the problem by over torquing, and ideally don't torque up when the wheels and bolts are hot after a session on track.

 

[CamMoreRon]

That isn't true, I'm afraid! The spigot is there to centralise the wheel to the hub, but also to take some of the load from braking / cornering (especially braking) so that you aren't solely relying on the clamp joint between wheel and hub.

The spigot rings being loose means that the wheel can shift slightly on the wheel face as brake torque is applied, which allows the wheel to wander around the spigot. This circular wandering is what backs the torque off the wheel bolts! This is confirmed by the circular swirl marks on the wheel faces, and is what was causing the heavy vibration under braking.

 

[Mini182]

I'm afraid it is true.

Plastic spigot rings don't do anything once the wheel is torqued up.

All the issues you have been having, the marks etc are because the bolts are coming loose. Again a common problem on clios when on track.

That isn't true, I'm afraid! The spigot is there to centralise the wheel to the hub, but also to take some of the load from braking / cornering (especially braking) so that you aren't solely relying on the clamp joint between wheel and hub.

The spigot rings being loose means that the wheel can shift slightly on the wheel face as brake torque is applied, which allows the wheel to wander around the spigot. This circular wandering is what backs the torque off the wheel bolts! This is confirmed by the circular swirl marks on the wheel faces, and is what was causing the heavy vibration under braking.

 

[MG cup]

I have pro race 1.2's with plastic spigot rings and melt a set every other time I used them on track. Some Clio's have worn threads in the hub and have this problem which I think you have. Go stud and nut or replace the wheel bolts and hub flanges.

And do to add to that, I don't get the problems you are having. I torque to 110nm prior to going on track, get heat into everything and re torque. Although its not proper practice to torque a hot bolt/stud that's what's needed.

 

[.GAZ.]

Get a stud conversion kit. You won't look back.

 

[CamMoreRon]

Thanks for the picture.. do you mind if I use it in my emails to Demon Tweeks / Team Dynamics while I try and sort it out, to show that the rings are known to fail under track use?

I will try a stud and nut kit, but won't be able to do it in time for the 'ring!

 

[.GAZ.]

PMS do the stud kit. Think it's about £100.

 

[Fraser.J.]

Don't run spigots with my pro race on my track car, have the PMS stud kit and never had any issues.

Spigots do not take load

 

[Coops Mk1]

I run without spigots as I tend to loose them from time to time, doesn't make a difference tbh, the wheels centralise fine when you do up two opposing bolts evenly to allow for it.

I would say the issue is as mentioned, the thread in the hubs is not perfect or the common one of the paint not breaking on the mating surface on the brand new wheels so the bolts slip. personally I'd start with the cheaper way and just sand off the paint (don't dremel, you could mess up and take chunks out the bolt seat) and then the bolts should grip.

 

[MG cup]

Fire on with the photo.

I have already complained to Team dynamics or rim stock iirc about it.... all I got was buy the proper wheels with custom spigots for Motorsport (surprisingly not much more than universal fitment) and I got 4 new spigots which melted again. Tbh I never had any vibration issues or wheels coming slack other than what others have said when some heat gets in and you re torque.

 

[MarkCup]

If the spigots take no load at all, are we saying that the mass of the car is suspended on 4 small studs/bolts and the friction only of the wheel mating surface against the hub?

Really? So 4 spindly bolts and a some friction is what keeps the wheels where they should be when you barrel into a braking zone at 120mph?

I always understood (and it's kind of simple to see it if you think it through) that the hub-centre locating in the bore of the wheel was absolutely a load bearing union.

 

[Mini182]

Dremel is fine if you use the sander attachment.

I run without spigots as I tend to loose them from time to time, doesn't make a difference tbh, the wheels centralise fine when you do up two opposing bolts evenly to allow for it.

I would say the issue is as mentioned, the thread in the hubs is not perfect or the common one of the paint not breaking on the mating surface on the brand new wheels so the bolts slip. personally I'd start with the cheaper way and just sand off the paint (don't dremel, you could mess up and take chunks out the bolt seat) and then the bolts should grip.

 

[Mini182]

Essentially yes.

But I wouldn't call M12 High Tensile bolts 'spindly bolts'

If the spigots take no load at all, are we saying that the mass of the car is suspended on 4 small studs/bolts and the friction only of the wheel mating surface against the hub?

Really? So 4 spindly bolts and a some friction is what keeps the wheels where they should be when you barrel into a braking zone at 120mph?

I always understood (and it's kind of simple to see it if you think it through) that the hub-centre locating in the bore of the wheel was absolutely a load bearing union.

 

[Coops Mk1]

If the spigots take no load at all, are we saying that the mass of the car is suspended on 4 small studs/bolts and the friction only of the wheel mating surface against the hub?

Really? So 4 spindly bolts and a some friction is what keeps the wheels where they should be when you barrel into a braking zone at 120mph?

I always understood (and it's kind of simple to see it if you think it through) that the hub-centre locating in the bore of the wheel was absolutely a load bearing union.

Essentially yes.

But I wouldn't call M12 High Tensile bolts 'spindly bolts'

as above, the spigots do pretty much nothing other than locate the wheel in real terms. the 4 bolts are perfectly fine for forces well above what we throw at them.

look at when cars crash, often you'll find the wheels snaps at the spokes and the central hub of the wheel still remains bolted to the cars hub

 

[CamMoreRon]

I'm really sorry guys but I don't think that's right! Wheels are subject to huge accelerations and shock loading from bumps in the road and from gaining and losing traction (such as a wheelspin or lock-up) so a clamp interface isn't going to be enough to stop micro-movement under these loads. The spigot does take some load as it is a positive locator, so if it is a poor fit then that extra load has to be taken up by the clamp interface.

I'll go and ask my colleague who works on wheels & hubs (I work at an OEM as a suspension systems engineer) whether this is correct, but it certainly seems it to me.

 

[MarkCup]

Essentially yes.

But I wouldn't call M12 High Tensile bolts 'spindly bolts'

as above, the spigots do pretty much nothing other than locate the wheel in real terms. the 4 bolts are perfectly fine for forces well above what we throw at them.

look at when cars crash, often you'll find the wheels snaps at the spokes and the central hub of the wheel still remains bolted to the cars hub

Spindly wasn't the right word, but think about how the bolts/studs are designed to function.

They work under longitudinal tension don't they which provides the friction between the hub and wheel?

Imagine what they're subjected to when they've bolted a wheel to a rim...the force, in the absence of a spigot ring, is trying to shear them like a guillotine.

Are threaded wheel bolts really designed to withstand that shearing force? One would hope so as if not, and in the absence of a spigot ring, you're in effect relying on their ability to resist shearing (and admittedly some friction) to keep the wheels attached to your car.

 

[CamMoreRon]

No, they' aren't! They're only supposed to be loaded in tension.

I've spoken to the hub & bearings engineer and a couple of other engineers at work and they all agreed that failure of the spigot can lead to micro-movement of the wheel / hub clamp interface, and that then leads to torque drop-off. The clamp isn't a positive locator, so if your input force exceeds the friction force at the joint then you will get movement. With sticky A048's and very good brakes on a hot day it could be that the softening of the spigot ring, and losing the small force that the location would take out, the load was high enough to cause movement.. once that starts it just keeps on going until the bolts torque drops off!

I have never had problems with my standard Turini's, which have a direct fit bore, so it certainly makes sense to me. They have standard road tyres, too, so the forces are lower.

 

[ilovewilly]

Do you have a pretty substantial, space framed 205 in your collection Cameron?

 

[Dave..]

There's far too much attention being paid to spigot rings in this thread.

I would be comparing your wheel bolts to a brand new bolt, checking to see whether they're stretched or not, or replacing the hubs.

If you're saying you did the bolts up to stupid torques while on a track day, you're going to stretch the bolts. This is your problem.

 

[Coops Mk1]

If the spigots take no load at all, are we saying that the mass of the car is suspended on 4 small studs/bolts and the friction only of the wheel mating surface against the hub?

Really? So 4 spindly bolts and a some friction is what keeps the wheels where they should be when you barrel into a braking zone at 120mph?

I always understood (and it's kind of simple to see it if you think it through) that the hub-centre locating in the bore of the wheel was absolutely a load bearing union.

Essentially yes.

But I wouldn't call M12 High Tensile bolts 'spindly bolts'

No, they' aren't! They're only supposed to be loaded in tension.

I've spoken to the hub & bearings engineer and a couple of other engineers at work and they all agreed that failure of the spigot can lead to micro-movement of the wheel / hub clamp interface, and that then leads to torque drop-off. The clamp isn't a positive locator, so if your input force exceeds the friction force at the joint then you will get movement. With sticky A048's and very good brakes on a hot day it could be that the softening of the spigot ring, and losing the small force that the location would take out, the load was high enough to cause movement.. once that starts it just keeps on going until the bolts torque drops off!

I have never had problems with my standard Turini's, which have a direct fit bore, so it certainly makes sense to me. They have standard road tyres, too, so the forces are lower.

perhaps on a 1000bhp 4wd car on slicks on a jam hot day sideways on fire

for a 20p clio with naff all weight in it and sod all grip (in real terms) it wont make a jot of difference if the spigot is there, not there, broken, ill fitting or otherwise. I have run spigotless, melted spigot, broken spigot, half a spigot, with spacers, without spacers, hub centric, none hubcentric, extended bolts, stud conversion with every type of tyre under the sun including full slicks and when torqued up to right amount I've never had an issue. ( I have had wheels come loose twice on track but purely down to my own stupidity, not the equipment I used)

 

[CamMoreRon]

Double post!

 

[CamMoreRon]

Do you have a pretty substantial, space framed 205 in your collection Cameron?

I do indeed!

There's far too much attention being paid to spigot rings in this thread.

I would be comparing your wheel bolts to a brand new bolt, checking to see whether they're stretched or not, or replacing the hubs.

If you're saying you did the bolts up to stupid torques while on a track day, you're going to stretch the bolts. This is your problem.

The high torque on the wheels is irrelevant in this case, though; that was a last resort at the end of the day, done out of frustration. At the beginning of the day they were at 110Nm.

perhaps on a 1000bhp 4wd car on slicks on a jam hot day sideways on fire

for a 20p clio with naff all weight in it and sod all grip (in real terms) it wont make a jot of difference if the spigot is there, not there, broken, ill fitting or otherwise. I have run spigotless, melted spigot, broken spigot, half a spigot, with spacers, without spacers, hub centric, none hubcentric, extended bolts, stud conversion with every type of tyre under the sun including full slicks and when torqued up to right amount I've never had an issue. ( I have had wheels come loose twice on track but purely down to my own stupidity, not the equipment I used)

Hahaha well braking force is the highest loading on any vehicle so I could have 1,000 million bhp for all you know.

To be honest, it's very difficult to tell whether the spigots being out of size are the cause of the torque drop or a secondary failure as a result of the wheels becoming loose, but they certainly don't fit any more! Once I went with the longer bolts and torqued them up to 130Nm they stayed done up, but there was vibration from where the wheels were off-centre at certain speeds, as if all the balance weights had come off.

 

[Coops Mk1]

I do indeed!



The high torque on the wheels is irrelevant in this case, though; that was a last resort at the end of the day, done out of frustration. At the beginning of the day they were at 110Nm.



Hahaha well braking force is the highest loading on any vehicle so I could have 1,000 million bhp for all you know.

To be honest, it's very difficult to tell whether the spigots being out of size are the cause of the torque drop or a secondary failure as a result of the wheels becoming loose, but they certainly don't fit any more! Once I went with the longer bolts and torqued them up to 130Nm they stayed done up, but there was vibration from where the wheels were off-centre at certain speeds, as if all the balance weights had come off.

somehow I don't think you have

and I have a feeling your going to reach the limit of tyre traction and lock up waaaaaaay before 4 high tensile m12 bolts snap....in fact I know you do as mine haven't snapped yet and I can lock the slicks up if I want (or more usually due to talent fail,lol)

 

[CamMoreRon]

Aye, but snapping bolts isn't the issue.. it's micro-movement of the wheel on the hub face causing the bolts to come undone. You don't have to shear the bolts for them to fail, just have to have enough repeated small movements of the hub / wheel interface for them to start coming undone.

Anywho.. the bolts on all four wheels came undone! The rears had brand new discs so the hub faces & bolt threads were all good, and I've never had any problems with the same front brake setup and standard wheels, so if it isn't the spigot rings then what could it be?

 

[CamMoreRon]

Just got a call from Demon Tweeks saying they'll get Team Dynamics to machine up a set of metal spigot rings. So that will at least remove the chance that it was that the plastic ones that were to blame!

I think I'll see if I can get a stud & nut kit as well, just for belt & braces. Does anyone use aluminium nuts, and what compound do you use (if any) to keep the studs in place? I'm assuming they screw in rather than press in.

 

[Coops Mk1]

spigots still wont make a difference though, if the micro movement as you put it is occurring, even with perfect spigots only the up/down movement would be eliminated on the load bearing centre, they could still slip rotationally by that logic. unless is a combo of both.

personally I reckon its just new paint on the bolt seats, get rid of that and done