Which coilovers to go for?

[Jonny1*2]

hmmm, all very confusing but makes sense strangly. Thanks Phil. Still none the wiser as to which coilovers would be the best for track and occassional road use. Bare in mind I would be pushing it spending a grand on them .

Saying all that, supercars tend to have little or no body roll what so ever. Even f1 cars are very stiff, why do the rules no apply here? BTW i'm not comparing clios to these

 

[Jonny1*2]

But, (and I know I shouldn't start a sentence with but), when the race car and road car are essentially the same, why does there seem to be the discrepancy between the F/R spring rates?

Surely that's just due to weight distribution?

 

[Phil @ P5]

How much grip does your race car have when the tyres are cold, compared to hot?

 

[Carlos Fandango]

How much grip does your race car have when the tyres are cold, compared to hot?

None when cold, rather more when hot.

 

[Phil @ P5]

hmmm, all very confusing but makes sense strangly. Thanks Phil. Still none the wiser as to which coilovers would be the best for track and occassional road use. Bare in mind I would be pushing it spending a grand on them .

Nor am I! Doesn't seem to be a general consensus, so I'll have to start with the basics and set an OE benchmark.

Even f1 cars are very stiff, why do the rules no apply here? BTW i'm not comparing clios to these

Who wants expensive CF scraping on the floor when they need to be low to run downforce.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Surely that's just due to weight distribution?

Sorry, I should have elaborated, the race car runs something like 1000lb front springs and 400lb rears, everyone is saying that on a modified road car, stiffer on the rear......why, they're essentially the same car, weight over front/rear etc.?

 

[Jonny1*2]

Nor am I! Doesn't seem to be a general consensus, so I'll have to start with the basics and set an OE benchmark.

What you running currently, car etc?

Who wants expensive CF scraping on the floor when they need to be low to run downforce.

Fare point. Plus tyres are the main thing in F1, so that kind of makes sense.

 

[Jonny1*2]

Sorry, I should have elaborated, the race car runs something like 1000lb front springs and 400lb rears, everyone is saying that on a modified road car, stiffer on the rear......why, they're essentially the same car, weight over front/rear etc.?

who says stiffer on the rear? If you put what Phil has said into it. If the rear of the car has stiffer damping, then there is less travel and rebound, but the rear end doesn't do much of the work anyway. The fronts need to be softer to absord bumps, and make sure the power is applied correctly. Might have said that all wrong, but that's what I've made of it all

 

[Phil @ P5]

i'm also interested to read what phill has to say regarding suspension setup. especially regarding height, it is my understanding that the ideal height has more to do with the mounting points and wishbones than the apperance of the car.

Consider who's spent £££s developing it in the first case. Measuring the suspension and plopping it into a program like SusProg will tell you all you need to know and in general, OE ride height is optimum. That's not to say it all falls apart if the ride height is dropped as gains and loses can be kept to a minimum. If you do lower too much you increase geometric weight transfer which is not controlled by the damper.

i'd definately agree that a softer setup will give more grip and be more compliant in general. surely body roll would be better controlled by spending time setting up the low speed rebound values?

Bingo! But that opens another can of worms as there are damper manufacturers out there that tune weight transfer with low speed bump.

Phil

 

[ForceIndia]

Sorry, I should have elaborated, the race car runs something like 1000lb front springs and 400lb rears, everyone is saying that on a modified road car, stiffer on the rear......why, they're essentially the same car, weight over front/rear etc.?

Will the spring rates on a combined spring damper be different to a seperate spring damper setup?

 

[Phil @ P5]

Sorry, I should have elaborated, the race car runs something like 1000lb front springs and 400lb rears, everyone is saying that on a modified road car, stiffer on the rear......why, they're essentially the same car, weight over front/rear etc.?

Because you want to heat the tyres. A stiff spring will stop the suspension from moving so you'll have flex in the sidewalls to help heat the tyres. Also understeer scrub will also help as well. If it's a longer race, then you'd probably be not so extreme.

Did you ever get to the limits of grip at the front?

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Because you want to heat the tyres. A stiff spring will stop the suspension from moving so you'll have flex in the sidewalls to help heat the tyres. Also understeer scrub will also help as well. If it's a longer race, then you'd probably be not so extreme.

Did you ever get to the limits of grip at the front?

If I say no, am I a girl?

 

[Phil @ P5]

If I say no, am I a girl?

Erm......:S

With those spring rates, you're into serious understeer-city at steady state (discounting alignment), as it's the ratio of front/rear stiffness that determines which end looses grip first. If the front grip is saturated waaay before the rear, then you've essentially wasted grip at the rear. By tuning the springs to have a neutral balance, ie the front saturates just before the rear, you potentially could have more cornering speed!

 

[Carlos Fandango]

If I say no, am I a girl?

Erm......:S

With those spring rates, you're into serious understeer-city at steady state (discounting alignment), as it's the ratio of front/rear stiffness that determines which end looses grip first. If the front grip is saturated waaay before the rear, then you've essentially wasted grip at the rear. By tuning the springs to have a neutral balance, ie the front saturates just before the rear, you potentially could have more cornering speed!

Well, the one place I used to get bad understeer wad the right hander before you go, onto the back straight at Snetterton, probably others but hey.

 

[drhowser]

Will the spring rates on a combined spring damper be different to a seperate spring damper setup?

i would say yes in this instance, because of the different mounting point.
in the road setup you effectively have the wheel on the end of a lever.

if i had the measurements i could probably calculate the effective difference in the spring rates (given enough time)

 

[drhowser]

Consider who's spent £££s developing it in the first case. Measuring the suspension and plopping it into a program like SusProg will tell you all you need to know and in general, OE ride height is optimum. That's not to say it all falls apart if the ride height is dropped as gains and loses can be kept to a minimum. If you do lower too much you increase geometric weight transfer which is not controlled by the damper.

Bingo! But that opens another can of worms as there are damper manufacturers out there that tune weight transfer with low speed bump.

Phil

cool, cheers Phill.

nice to know that i am thinking along the right lines.

i have also always thought that a well setup car actually feels slower then one which is badly setup. i.e. less energy is dissapated and you feel that you are thrown about less inside the car.

this is all something that interests me quite a bit, so if i am miles off, feel free to tell me so... just as long as you explain where i am wrong

cheers, doug

 

[Fred@BTM]

just to throw something in the mix

a quick clio (in my eyes) has a soft front end and a rock hard rear end = perfect

a common mis-conception is harder all round = good, that just isn't the case

 

[drhowser]

just to throw something in the mix

a quick clio (in my eyes) has a soft front end and a rock hard rear end = perfect

a common mis-conception is harder all round = good, that just isn't the case

i wondered when you would find this.

do you know the reason for the rates on carlos' car?

also, did you manage to do that posting? they have been asking about their bits again

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah yeah yeah, they've pm'd me (I DON'T DO PM'S!) monday next week they'll be sent

Carlos' car? what where when why?

 

[Carlos Fandango]

who says stiffer on the rear? If you put what Phil has said into it. If the rear of the car has stiffer damping, then there is less travel and rebound, but the rear end doesn't do much of the work anyway. The fronts need to be softer to absord bumps, and make sure the power is applied correctly. Might have said that all wrong, but that's what I've made of it all

just to throw something in the mix

a quick clio (in my eyes) has a soft front end and a rock hard rear end = perfect

a common mis-conception is harder all round = good, that just isn't the case

Fred does!

 

[drhowser]

Sorry, I should have elaborated, the race car runs something like 1000lb front springs and 400lb rears, everyone is saying that on a modified road car, stiffer on the rear......why, they're essentially the same car, weight over front/rear etc.?

from this it sounds like the front is much harder then the back?

 

[Fred@BTM]

indeed i do! suspension is a personal thing, what i like others won't

for example i run a small amount of front camber, if you believe what you read on here, you MUST have -4degree's on the front otherwise your car will be s**t

 

[Phil @ P5]

i have also always thought that a well setup car actually feels slower then one which is badly setup. i.e. less energy is dissapated and you feel that you are thrown about less inside the car.

this is all something that interests me quite a bit, so if i am miles off, feel free to tell me so... just as long as you explain where i am wrong

cheers, doug

I call it fuss-free. When you first drive a well set-up car you don't realise how fast you are in the corners until you look at the speedo!

 

[Phil @ P5]

just to throw something in the mix

a quick clio (in my eyes) has a soft front end and a rock hard rear end = perfect

a common mis-conception is harder all round = good, that just isn't the case

(Without having driven a Clio) As a generalisation, if you have say the front loosing grip early before the rear, you can change that by fettling with settings (damping, tyre pressure, alignment). All you're doing is making one end as bad as the other to compensate. If you have the chance it's better to start with the basics and work up, but that generally means spring/damper changes.

 

[GodSpeed]

But, (and I know I shouldn't start a sentence with but), when the race car and road car are essentially the same, why does there seem to be the discrepancy between the F/R spring rates?

I would like to know what springrates a factory set cupracer use?

 

[chrispy.clio]

indeed i do! suspension is a personal thing, what i like others won't

for example i run a small amount of front camber, if you believe what you read on here, you MUST have -4degree's on the front otherwise your car will be s**t

Whats a small amount of camber?

-1.5 or -2.0 ?

 

[GodSpeed]

With 15inch R888 (205/50) I have the constant problem or toasting the outsides of the tires. I use -2,8 in camber hard to tell if this have to do with to soft sides of the tires or with insignificant camber. Offcause I run airpressure according to specification = 2,2bar hot. Personally I think it is the camber since the tires need 3-3,5 negative camber according to Toyo. Got a better with the Quaife diff but not good enough. Cup racer uses 3,8-4 degrees negative from what Ive read.

Thinking about manufacturing longer A-arms ala cup and lowering the pivot point as well. = more camber and wider track.

 

[Bazzon]

Negative camber...thats for girls...

This issue is now fixed, lol.

 

[ben_r1]

KW V3.

Best mod you can do to a car!

 

[Sir_Dave]

Driving tuition.

Best mod you can do to a car!

 

[Jonny1*2]

So if i'm looking at getting some decent adjustable coilovers in the future for the 182 cup chassis, what options do I have? Are Koni adjustable dampers available for the hubs? or would I have to go for coilovers?

 

[Gray]

just to throw something in the mix

a quick clio (in my eyes) has a soft front end and a rock hard rear end = perfect

a common mis-conception is harder all round = good, that just isn't the case

the man speaks truth!

I run my KW's just a quarter turn off the hardest setting on the rear.. and the fronts half a turn from the softest setting, with 1.5 degree negative camber.

The car has never felt so good... and its not even "set-up" just did it myself at a local garage LOL

 

[Carlos Fandango]

I would like to know what springrates a factory set cupracer use?

1000lb front 400lb rear

 

[shiftspark]

So if i'm looking at getting some decent adjustable coilovers in the future for the 182 cup chassis, what options do I have? Are Koni adjustable dampers available for the hubs? or would I have to go for coilovers?

I am using koni's on front and rear but with revalved rears to make them stiffer also on standard springs until I get some sorted but very impressed with how my car went at oulton last week in the wet , I would say at least as good as my Trophy was .

 

[Jonny1*2]

the man speaks truth!

I run my KW's just a quarter turn off the hardest setting on the rear.. and the fronts half a turn from the softest setting, with 1.5 degree negative camber.

The car has never felt so good... and its not even "set-up" just did it myself at a local garage LOL

Sounds like KW are getting good reviews. Pretty sure they aren't for cup chassis though

I am using koni's on front and rear but with revalved rears to make them stiffer also on standard springs until I get some sorted but very impressed with how my car went at oulton last week in the wet , I would say at least as good as my Trophy was .

which car you driving? or do you mean oulton on the 13th? I quite like the sounds of koni's just don't think they make them for the cup/trophy hubs.

 

[Gray]

If you contact KW they make you up a set to pretty much any specification...

they do a set for all except the 182 cup IIRC, but its only a matter of changing the bolt spacing on the top hole of the strut

 

[Jonny1*2]

Yeah but the one's i'm looking at are the v2's inox (presume these are the ones you're running mate?) so at a grand for them as they are, I can't imagine how much they would charge to bespoke them :S

 

[Gray]

yeah KW v2... the only way to roll!

the adjustment is minimal you need to make

 

[Jonny1*2]

I know, but getting them to do the hub fitment will be a pain surely.

You running solid top mounts? Oh and are you round NW tomorrow for the meet

 

[Gray]

yeah Compbrake top mounts, I cant fault them!

unfortunately not at the NW meet... little too far for me LOL