manual steering conversion

[ben_p]

i am going to be running manual steering on my 172

i know the rack is hydrolic (sp) i have the rack off now and there is a million PAS pipe bolted on to it.

i need to remove all these which is fine but do i need to block the holes in the rack when the lines were, as i dont want s**t in them etc, but would this cause a presure lock? and stop the rack from moving?

 

[edde]

Get a proper manaul rack form a none PAS car.
Or get an electric rack (its much easier)

 

[PYE21]

As edde says just get a manual rack, it will be heavier than you think though, the rest of the steering and suspension is designed around it being powered.

 

[D1CKY]

Why you putting a manual rack in yer 172 ?

 

[ben_p]

its being tunned up and its part of the conversion.

what racks are manual and fit then?

 

[ben_p]

electric rack would be a pain in the arse though? wouldnt it need the speed sensors and loom ? im running an omex so want to keep it basic on the wiring side

 

[Adam]

just put a rudder on the back

 

[ben_p]

LOL

 

[ben_p]

oh btw do you have my draper big f**k off bar?

 

[Just Bob]

You must be NUTS.
Manufacturers spend millions on research and developement, and although they don't always get it right, they still designed the vehicle fit for a purpose. You intend to take away the power steering hydraulics or fit a manual rack?
Drive down the road, switch off the engine and try and steer the bugger without power to the rack and see how you get on. This exercise should be conducted off a public road with plenty of space. You might just change your mind.

Still can't see why you want to do it in the first place.

 

[Adam]

oh btw do you have my draper big f**k off bar?

erm poss, I will check 2moz

 

[Adam]

Still can't see why you want to do it in the first place.

because he is a smack head :approve:

 

[stevo172-RWD]

sounds to me hes going to have alot less weight at the front
its not that bad without pas! f***ing weak people.
same as abs take it off!:rasp:

 

[PYE21]

You must be NUTS.
Manufacturers spend millions on research and developement, and although they don't always get it right, they still designed the vehicle fit for a purpose. You intend to take away the power steering hydraulics or fit a manual rack?
Drive down the road, switch off the engine and try and steer the bugger without power to the rack and see how you get on. This exercise should be conducted off a public road with plenty of space. You might just change your mind.

Still can't see why you want to do it in the first place.

Not quite how it will react, if you do this you are pushing the fluid through the system yourself and manufacturers have to design the steering with a safety factor if the pump fails. It means that the system can be used, but it is stupidly stiff. If you loose the power rack the steering arms aren't going to be the correct length and the steering will be stiffer than it should.

 

[bmh.01]

You must be NUTS.
Manufacturers spend millions on research and developement, and although they don't always get it right, they still designed the vehicle fit for a purpose. You intend to take away the power steering hydraulics or fit a manual rack?
Drive down the road, switch off the engine and try and steer the bugger without power to the rack and see how you get on. This exercise should be conducted off a public road with plenty of space. You might just change your mind.

Still can't see why you want to do it in the first place.

Saps power to drive the pump and when your going for an all out track car which I think ben is it all matters. And surely it will be more difficult to steer with a hydraulic rack with the engine being off due to you'll have to more the fluid in the rack? Will give a false impression of it being heavier than it will be.

Don't go electric i'd say removes so much feel from the road, can't believe how much more you can feel through the wheel coming from the old electric pas'd 1.6 to my hydraulic pas'd 172.

 

[edde]

electric rack would be a pain in the arse though? wouldnt it need the speed sensors and loom ? im running an omex so want to keep it basic on the wiring side

Just tap into the speedo signal the elec rack is all one unit stand alone.

I forget what model for definate but the Mk2 phase 1's the small low spec stuff I think might use the manaul racks.

Gte an electric or hydrolic rack working though well worth it.

 

[TomTom]

You must be NUTS.
Manufacturers spend millions on research and developement, and although they don't always get it right, they still designed the vehicle fit for a purpose. You intend to take away the power steering hydraulics or fit a manual rack?
Drive down the road, switch off the engine and try and steer the bugger without power to the rack and see how you get on. This exercise should be conducted off a public road with plenty of space. You might just change your mind.

Still can't see why you want to do it in the first place.

Not quite how it will react, if you do this you are pushing the fluid through the system yourself and manufacturers have to design the steering with a safety factor if the pump fails. It means that the system can be used, but it is stupidly stiff. If you loose the power rack the steering arms aren't going to be the correct length and the steering will be stiffer than it should.

It would!!! Bob is on about having a PAS fluid system, taking away all the hydraulics (pump, lines etc) and seeing how you get on, it wouldn't be driveable really you'd be wrestling the steering everywhere - only for emergencys. The safety factor is just the physical link thats all (rack and pinion etc) Steering arms don't change length, they're not pushed out by fluid, just helped along depending which way you are turning.

Anyway a PAS fluid type rack would seize up eventually without fluid, and you'd force any fluid you had in it out when you turned.

 

[16v_jon]

Your better off using a manual rack from an early 1.2 RN 1998 onwards, the other problem is the steering arms are 12mm each side too short compared to the 172, therefore you'll need to use the steering rods off the hydro rack.

 

[Just Bob]

Still can't see what is to be gained be shedding a few pounds and a couple of BHP's for the pump to have a car that steers like a LADA with an elephant glued to the bonnet?

 

[TomTom]

Ben can you not save the weight elsewhere ?

 

[ben_p]

i can but, but its the modification the engine is having is the reason for the loss of the PAS, i could just use the cup set up or have some custom PAS lines and brackets mate to run the PAS but...that woudl be easy!.

and it needs to spin up as fast as it can.. so anything less on the AUX is good news

 

[PYE21]

Not quite how it will react, if you do this you are pushing the fluid through the system yourself and manufacturers have to design the steering with a safety factor if the pump fails. It means that the system can be used, but it is stupidly stiff. If you loose the power rack the steering arms aren't going to be the correct length and the steering will be stiffer than it should.

It would!!! Bob is on about having a PAS fluid system, taking away all the hydraulics (pump, lines etc) and seeing how you get on, it wouldn't be driveable really you'd be wrestling the steering everywhere - only for emergencys. The safety factor is just the physical link thats all (rack and pinion etc) Steering arms don't change length, they're not pushed out by fluid, just helped along depending which way you are turning.

Anyway a PAS fluid type rack would seize up eventually without fluid, and you'd force any fluid you had in it out when you turned.

No it isn't!!! Have you ever driven a car that has no power steering? And a car that the power steering has failed on?? THe powered car that failed has a lot heavier steering, hence the comparison isn't correct.

The length of the steering arms and the rest of the suspension/steering is designed around the fact that the steering is powered (longer arms are easier to move etc) so reomve the power and add a manual rack and the steering will be heavier than a standard un-powered system but not as heavy as a failed system.

Electric would be the easiest way to go, but its supposed to give very poor feel.

 

[13"rims]

you're modifying the engine and the PAS has to go? sounds like a supercharger to me...

 

[MATT BLACK]

I fitted a standard 1.2 manual rack on my conversion. Just strip the pipes off and the pump + reservoir. You will need to fit an auxilary pulley from a clio 1.5dci were the old PAS pump is meant to go. You will also need a different aux belt as well. You dont have to change the column as it mates up to the 1.2 rack. If you keep the standard 172 rack with no PAS it will be very heavy - the 1.2 rack is superb....it works a treat.

no 3 ...... £25 + vat from me

 

[ben_p]

how much for a 1.2 manual rack matt? and will it just bolt to the subframe?

 

[MATT BLACK]

£50 + vat ........yes it just bolts straight on

 

[ben_p]

woohooo.

someone told me i could use the Volvo alternator with the adjustment mount? if i use the DCI pulley would i have to use the old mounting brackets from the 172 auz set up to house it?

 

[ben_p]

also arnt the 1.2 racks 25mm too short on either side?

 

[MATT BLACK]

The aux wheel will bolt in place on the old bracket - you will have to play around with the bolts that hold it in place ( make a spacer ) so the belt that also powers the alternator lines up with the 1.5 dci pulley.

I dont know if the rack is 25mm shorter ? never made no difference on my motor - if it is just lengthen it with 172 track rod ends if they are longer

 

[MATT BLACK]

2.0 16v set up

 

[Butler205]

Are the 1.2 racks the same ratio as the PAS racks. Normally PAS racks are "quicker" if you know what I mean.

You need to remove the ram from the PAS too, not just the fluid other wise it will feel very heavy.


Some electric PAS pumps are very good. The 106 ones have a nicely weighted feel.

 

[13"rims]

manual steering has greater feel and communication, that's surely what you're after, right?

Its just a bugger for parking, which is where PAS comes in handy

 

[Fred@BTM]

keep the PAS, trust me! i drove yoz's car for about 2000 miles with no PAS and it was dnagerous/scary

 

[MATT BLACK]

With a standard 1.2 rack the steering is nice and light - a 172 with a PAS rack which isnt working will be heavy

 

[Fred@BTM]

I fitted a standard 1.2 manual rack on my conversion. Just strip the pipes off and the pump + reservoir. You will need to fit an auxilary pulley from a clio 1.5dci were the old PAS pump is meant to go. You will also need a different aux belt as well. You dont have to change the column as it mates up to the 1.2 rack. If you keep the standard 172 rack with no PAS it will be very heavy - the 1.2 rack is superb....it works a treat.

no 3 ...... £25 + vat from me

thats a daft way to do it! just put a shorter belt on!

 

[MATT BLACK]

Fred.....you seen the path of the auxilary belt ?? numpty

 

[Fred@BTM]

yes! have you??

belt goes round the crank pulley over the water pump and onto the alternator, no need for a dci pulley at all

 

[TomTom]

It would!!! Bob is on about having a PAS fluid system, taking away all the hydraulics (pump, lines etc) and seeing how you get on, it wouldn't be driveable really you'd be wrestling the steering everywhere - only for emergencys. The safety factor is just the physical link thats all (rack and pinion etc) Steering arms don't change length, they're not pushed out by fluid, just helped along depending which way you are turning.

Anyway a PAS fluid type rack would seize up eventually without fluid, and you'd force any fluid you had in it out when you turned.

THe powered car that failed has a lot heavier steering, hence the comparison isn't correct.

i know the rack is hydrolic (sp) i have the rack off now and there is a million PAS pipe bolted on to it.

i need to remove all these which is fine but do i need to block the holes...

Ben's on about removing the pump/lines from the PAS rack / blocking the holes etc and not changing it to a non-PAS rack. Your on about putting a non-PAS rack on... which is obviously going to be better than a PAS rack with no PAS but thats not what hes saying hes going todo. Try driving a PAS rack without PAS...!! Undriveable in the real world.

 

[ben_p]

im going to run with the 1.2 rack off matt.

just found out the engine has piston damage so ive gotta order new ISA (sp) pistons and rods