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Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project [Year 3 - Engine and Chassis Rebuild]



Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Oh, are you using the 172 clutch arm? I've put one in the Twingo, but will probably ditch it next time it's out as it feels too soft to me. Anyway, on the 5's and in the Twingo you need to trim a bit off the pedal stop to get enough travel with the 172 arm. Pedal stop being the nylon block that the pedal rests on when released.
 
  BMW M5 & E36
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah he had a play with the ratchet to no avail.

172/Volvo arm, pivot bush and cable mount extension bracket. It is a pretty soft setup but I prefer it to the standard setup personally. Pedal stop was trimmed down ages back yep.

Car jacked up, first gear with the clutch fully depressed and the wheels spin considerably... hit the brakes and it stalls. Not a great deal that it can be really is there? Considered a stretched cable, but the ratchet should make up for that, and it's highly unlikely it'd stretch that amount without snapping, as they have a habit of doing.
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I had a cable where the outer failed, so rather than pulling the clutch it just compressed the sleeve.

It might be worth popping the cable off to have a look at it before stripping the box off, although it does sound internal.
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cable is pretty much brand new...all looks fine..

As Whiteley said really, pedal stop was trimmed when I first did the conversion etc...

I had about 40+ laps before and all of a sudden could not get it into 2nd, no wierd noises etc. No gears will engage at all now either, its like the clutch is not disengaging at all...
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Aye feels 100% as it has done for the past few weeks but just does not seem to disengage far enough and allow it into gear, its proper wierd...

Also, with the cable removed from the fork there is loads of play in the fork with a 'twisting' motion like somethings happened to the seats on the release bearing
 
  ValverInBits
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

So you reckon the release bearing has just collapsed? bad times :(. Did you replace it with the conversion? It shouldn't be going already surely
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

So you reckon the release bearing has just collapsed? bad times :(. Did you replace it with the conversion? It shouldn't be going already surely

Possibly, think im going to replace the whole clutch/bearing etc.

Gutted, looked like you were going well before the clutch went!

Yeah, was driving excellently, best it ever has to be honest... I raised the front up mid morning and lost my RH vibration so I can rule out the driveshaft for now too!


Literally just got back 20 mins ago, absolute joke regarding recovery :sleepy: Left it at Cadwell last night, Jams gave me a lift back up there this morning (Cheers!) and then we towed it to the entrance. Rang the RAC like all the other previous times and they came out after a few hours and then said they wont recover me as they thought I had been on track.

I found it hard to believe they could consder proving it seeing as I didnt have anything but some food and a camera bag in my car, along with road tyres fitted that look nothing like they have been on track?! Been flat bedded from Mallorys car park before and others from Oulton, so f*ck relying on them anymore!

Ended up getting quotes for private recovery and they were all £350+ or higher, and most couldnt do it until next week which would leave me stuck there as no one else had a spare passenger seat. After asking everyone I could think of regarding towing/trailers/etc I was still stuck and ended up driving it down the road without a clutch for about 25 miles matching the revs and having to bump start it in 1st on the starter motor from junctions - until the release bearing started screeching even more I pulled into a layby and left it.

I had one of the others passengers with me who was with the AA, so he (Cheers Rob) called them instead and managed to get home after 7 hours of a-frame action for 150 miles.

F*ck doing any more track days until I have some sort of reliable recovery available that I can trust tbh!
 
  JDM Dc2
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

What a day/nighmare!

least you and car are home anyways and knowing you you'll have it sorted in no time!
 

Paddy_g46

ClioSport Club Member
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Tbh you should have driven it at least a mile before you rang them, then they really couldnt have said anything!
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Didnt know it drove to be honest, tried to bump it on the starter the day before but it didnt want any of it (battery struggled) so never bothered trying it again... We tried to bump it from a dead stop in 1st gear by pushing it but could never get it to turn over enough times quick enough
 
  TrackCar & F30 330d
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Sorry to hear about your problems.

The RAC are useless, the wouldnt tow me home becaus they said to was lowered.

I think ADAC can be used in england as a recovery service
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Yeah its through the AA in the UK - the guy who recovered us the first leg was on about trackdays etc and said the call management center apparently refuse to accept jobs that are wanting to be recovered from locations next to circuits, so would have been f*cked if I had rang from the same place as I did the RAC.

Although on the actual day an AA van came into the paddock and towed someones car I think? I really dont understand it - seems very very hit and miss...
 
  TrackCar & F30 330d
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I think you can get different levels of cover cant you. So maybe look into that. Like cover where you can get picked up anywhere and taken anywhere you like. Just somthing to look into
 

wilky19

ClioSport Club Member
  Leon FR 184
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

the when mine died at rs tuning the guy was being a bit arsey about getting it recovered, because he thought i had been on the rollers.

they wouldn't tow my sisters car back to other because it was lowered till i kick off.
 

Daniel

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Jord, I will have a recovery company up and running within the next few months.

I'd drive from bristol to Oulton, take you home and get myself back to bristol for less than the £350 you were quoted!!

You tried Shiply.com?
 

Barron

ClioSport Club Member
  Turbo S,Exige,R5,182
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

the problem is with RAC and AA is that the customer service is not consistent. One van driver may not be bothered and pick you up etc, another one may tell you to f@ck off.

I got towed from leeds to boro with the track car, that is too low so he helped removed the front bumper and threw that in his van. He said that a lot of his colleagues would not go to that trouble and just blatantly refuse.

Carl
 

Daniel

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

the problem is with RAC and AA is that the customer service is not consistent. One van driver may not be bothered and pick you up etc, another one may tell you to f@ck off.

I got towed from leeds to boro with the track car, that is too low so he helped removed the front bumper and threw that in his van. He said that a lot of his colleagues would not go to that trouble and just blatantly refuse.

Carl

I trust you repaid him with a few beer tokens??
 
  172 Race Car
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

That's BAD service from the RAC. sorry to hear that mate.

The RAC are useless, the wouldnt tow me home becaus they said to was lowered.

the problem is with RAC and AA is that the customer service is not consistent. One van driver may not be bothered and pick you up etc, another one may tell you to f@ck off.

l

If you all bothered to read your terms and conditions you would see that its all in there. If a car has been modified (lowered) and cannot be towed in the normal way, the cost is down to the member. If the car has been used in an event that does not comply with the rules of the road it is not covered.

The fact that some of you have been recovered is down to the individual patrol attending. If its too low to get on the trailer (or looks it) and the guy tries to get it on (to help you out) and damages something you would complain, naturally. Cant order you a tow truck as a 'Clio' can be recovered under normal circunstances by the patrols trailer.

Its the same with untaxed stuff, needs a truck (all 4 wheels lifted) but why should the company cover the extra costs.


I got towed from leeds to boro with the track car, that is too low so he helped removed the front bumper and threw that in his van. He said that a lot of his colleagues would not go to that trouble and just blatantly refuse.

Carl
As Carl found, some are helpfull. I was surprised to see pic of it on the back of a van as I knew it was lowered quite a bit. Its do-able but there is potential for stuff to go wrong witch is why some wont want to do it



Yes, what one patrol would do to help is different from another.

Yes the service might not be conistant but I had a bad meal in a beefeater once but the one 10 miles away was lovely :rolleyes:





With the way the economy is alot of companies are getting stricter on managing costs. Its always been in the terms and conditions but they are enforced more now. But again, down to the individual.

Just trying to show the other side of the argument, HTH
 
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  172 cup
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

fook the other side of the argument. He paid for a service by taking out membership, did he get it??? Nope
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Hmmm - As you said it does seem to be 100% down to the patrol that comes out. Last year it was flat bedded 3 times, but only pulled up onto a retracting flat bed not lifted...

Yeah I know its in the terms and conditions but at the end of the day he could not prove I had been on the track at all, so was probably just being arsey or if I would have wanted to complain he would have used the 'modified' reason for not taking it...

Thing is though, the AA didnt even use a flatbed to get me the 150+ miles home, they just used an A-frame which the car went onto fine as it isnt that low. Either way I wont be using either of them again, just far far far to hit and miss with weather they take you or not.
 
  172 Race Car
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Hmmm - As you said it does seem to be 100% down to the patrol that comes out. Last year it was flat bedded 3 times, but only pulled up onto a retracting flat bed not lifted...

Yeah I know its in the terms and conditions but at the end of the day he could not prove I had been on the track at all, so was probably just being arsey or if I would have wanted to complain he would have used the 'modified' reason for not taking it...

Thing is though, the AA didnt even use a flatbed to get me the 150+ miles home, they just used an A-frame which the car went onto fine as it isnt that low. Either way I wont be using either of them again, just far far far to hit and miss with weather they take you or not.
Always going to be the problem with modified track cars im afraid.

RAC dont use A frames any more either. The trailers are a bit tricky with ride height, struggle with some standard splitters

fook the other side of the argument. He paid for a service by taking out membership, did he get it??? Nope
No he didnt because the policy he has doesnt cover what he needed
 
  TrackCar & F30 330d
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The guy who didnt pick me up said the policy was void because i had engine modifications too.

But i agree with Foxy completly down to the person who comes to see you. I've had the RAC out before and the guy was so into my car it was difficult to get away from him after he had fixed it.

I suppose the only way round this issue is to get a little run around and get a tow licence and trailor it everywhere yourself.
 
  ValverInBits
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I think it's a bit rotten as it cannot be proven that the car was on track. Although the signs are there. Just dissapointing really.
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

The guy who didnt pick me up said the policy was void because i had engine modifications too.

But i agree with Foxy completly down to the person who comes to see you. I've had the RAC out before and the guy was so into my car it was difficult to get away from him after he had fixed it.

I suppose the only way round this issue is to get a little run around and get a tow licence and trailor it everywhere yourself.

Problem is having somewhere to keep the trailer and car too...


Will do a proper update soon, but took the engine out this morning to find this...

IMG_1621_1.jpg


IMG_1631_1.jpg


IMG_1634_1.jpg


Hmmmmmmm! :S
 
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Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Cadwell was on the 7th July - near perfect and I was running the Superleggeras without any problems after some of the holes looked a bit iffy after Rockingham. The car was driving better than it ever has, especially the feel of the brakes with the new servo/cylinder setup. I raised the front of the car by about 5-10mm after the first two sessions as I was getting a vibration on hard right handers, which disapperared after raising it so it must have been bodywork related :)

4772423856_0cc97f6c36_o.jpg


4772346332_bc29a4ac61_o.jpg


4772436260_7522912133_o.jpg


Out on the fourth session and about 10 laps done, coming upto the hairpin I could not get any gears at all - managed to get it off the track just at the hairpin and through the gate. Tried to bump start it in 1st but couldnt get 2nd to make it back to the paddock. Ended up getting a tow - initially thinking it was the clutch cable or pedal setup broken... After a few hours of messing with it (literally), and trying various different things thinking it was the pedal nothing seemed to work.

I left the car and just wandered around/took pictures in the afternoon, trying to figure out how I was going to get the car home. I decided to leave it at Cadwell overnight as we already had a hotel booked for the night. Got a lift back to Cadwell in the morning and towed the car out of the gate - then rang the RAC. I emptied all the stuff from my car, all I had was some food. The RAC showed up a few hours later and point blank refused to recover my car (bearing in mind they did 5+ times last year from all over the country) - saying I had been on track. I asked the guy to proove how I was, considering I told him I was there watching the bikes on the day (Bike trackday on) - but he could not give me an answer and just kept going on saying they are not going to recover me as they think ive been on track. The car was road wheels too!

Told the guy fair enough and walked off to try and find some telephone numbers for private recovery companies, as I had no other choice at the time! All the prices were coming back at £350+, which was just out of the question. Some of the other people we did the trackday came back to Cadwell considering I was stuck there and we decided to use one of the other lads AA, or at least give it a try. I had to try and get the car away from Cadwell, so ended up driving it for 25+ miles without the clutch and not stopping until I got to a lay-by. The others then f*cked off and we called the AA at 2pm, who came out and eventually got us home (thank f*ck) at around 9pm by a-frame'ing it all the way back 160 miles.

------------------------------------------------------

The next day I set about trying to find out what the problem was - the clutch fork was very very loose with the cable removed, nothing like it used to be. I thought it had come away from the release bearing by its position as it was a long way off what it used to sit at...

IMG_1619_1.jpg


And could be twised to quite some angle left and right. Anyway I pulled the engine out first thing...

IMG_1618_1.jpg


The clutch fork had gone really sloppy after the problems at cadwell, with lots of play like the bearing was f*cked. It physically looked ok but the bearing itself had lots of play and was notchy to spin. After removing the box the first thing I saw was...

IMG_1621_1.jpg


IMG_1624_1.jpg


IMG_1626_1.jpg


There was lots of clutch material in the bell housing and trapped between the forks of the pressure plate. As you can see in the pictures the plate forks were seated oddly too, even though all the 6 mounting bolts were still tight and torqued up!

Removed the pressure plate and took a look at the clutch plate itself...

IMG_1631_1.jpg


Flipped it over...

IMG_1634_1.jpg


IMG_1641_1.jpg


IMG_1644_1.jpg


Zero clutch material attached to the plate on the pressure plate side, but the flywheel side looked in normal condition? Also, the springs in the clutch plate itself were very loose. Not entirely sure whats happened! There were some wear marks which I guess are from the rivets on the plate...

IMG_1659_1.jpg


But in general the whole thing was f*cked. Got on the phone to Euro Car Parts and ordered a replaement OEM (Valeo) clutch kit which I managed to blag for £90 over their high normal price...

IMG_1654_1.jpg


IMG_1656_1.jpg


Cleaned up all the clutch material from the housing and around the engine then fitted the new clutch/release bearing...

IMG_1661-1.jpg


And them lifted the engine back into place...

IMG_1663.jpg


IMG_1664.jpg


Re-fitted everything, driveshafts/box oil/coolant/wiring/clutch cable/etc and then took it for a drive, all fine :)

IMG_1666.jpg


Clutch feels a lot lighter too, like there is less force required for the pressure plate to be applied - I guess either thats because its brand new or the old one was f*cked, not sure! When driving the car seems to pull a lot harder from 3k upwards, maybe I had clutch slip before and was just used to it so never noticed?

Really dont know what caused the problem with the clutch as it was driving perfectly fine before it went, then all of a sudden just could not get any gears - very very wierd but would really like to find out as I dont want anything similar happening again!
 

jenic

ClioSport Club Member
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Have you decided if your doing cadwell at the end of the month then?

Might aswell now :D
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Not decided yet but probably not still as I want to sort out some sort of guaranteed recovery before I next do a track day, and there are a few more bits to tidy up on the car after doing the clutch. Not to mention the outlay for the clutch was practically the cost of the trackday and its money I didnt want to have to spend!

We'l see :)
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Fitted early 2009 - covered say 14k miles maybe, probably about 14 trackdays too but thats not really the point as it should take it all day long considering normal heavier 1*2's do - not sure whats happened!
 
  TVR Cerbera
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

f0xy, your clutch looks the same as mine did after killing it on a santa pod weekend. 100% guarentee it was slipping that killed it, yours just took longer than mine did ( about 6 secs iirc!)
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

I just had to watch that said video again, haha!

Unsure why it would have been slipping though, im 100% sure it was correctly adjusted as I hadnt long had the pedal box off when fitting the 172 servo/cylinder setup and everything felt 'normal'. That said, the car feels a fair amount faster with the new clutch in, so I wonder if its been slipping for a while and ive just got used to it?
 
  R5 GTT EFI Clio.
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Liking the coil pack positioning mate, did you have to make a bracket for it? got any pics? .. Looks very smart.
 
  172 cup
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

glad you got it all sorted. Is weird that, only thing I can think of other then it slipping itself to death is that a chunk of the clutch material had come away and getting wedged in there.
 
Re: Mk1 F4R/172'd Track Car Project

Liking the coil pack positioning mate, did you have to make a bracket for it? got any pics? .. Looks very smart.

At the moment - a few cable ties ;)

glad you got it all sorted. Is weird that, only thing I can think of other then it slipping itself to death is that a chunk of the clutch material had come away and getting wedged in there.

Yeah, well there was clutch material everywhere, all inside the bellhousing and jammed in the clutch plate. Proper wierd!
 


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