Opinions on this damage

Hi all.

Not going to go into too much detail, just the basic history and want opinions from members.

Timing went, recovered to a garage to inspect and carry out the work needed to repair.

Asked for boroscope early on to see the damage level and quote for labour to replace head and also labour to swap for a new engine incase of severe damage.

No boroscope done, no quote for engine swap, just quote of 12 hours labour to remove and refit head.
Took the recommendation from them to go down the head route.

No inspection done until after I have sourced a 2nd hand head and spent a fortune on getting it refreshed.
They waited until i had every part needed for the rebuild before starting.
The day they started, they sent me a picture of the damage to the pistons and block... (only because i asked for pics of the rebuild for my documentation, and have been particular with my questions for a number of things after taking advice from this and other RS groups about certain questions...like genuine timing tools and Group N timing potential) Garage say they would smooth the damage and put the head back on but upto me. If it were one of their cars they would do this.

The following day I recieved the picture of the cam, which played on my mind when trying to sleep because i thought you would spot the cam first before taking the head off...making me unsettled so asked them to stop the work.
also feel this could have been found quiickly before the long wait for sorting head out and would have gone new engine route.
Also they hadn't sent me an upto date quote at this time which i asked for 2 days before...and only told me today. I sent the email asking to stop last friday morning.

I realise this is still quite a bit of detail but need to mention the timeline of photos and how the engine was inspected.

So i am asking the community what their thoughts are to the order in which the pictures came? How the inspection shoukd have been handled from their perspective? And am I overthinking it all to be a strange that smoothing out would be fine, as apparently the piston rings wont get that high, the pistins have depressions in them anyway and if it was one of their cars they would have just cracked on smoothing and put the head back on?

I dont want to waste an £800 head on a block i dont feel comfortable with. Plus I was told, like another RS owner they have dealt with before, that I spend too much time listening to "keyboard warriors" on forums rather than trusting the knowledge of the garage.
(By the way, this community is amazing and I actually trust this community over the garages knowledge because there are owners who have had problems and found solutiins and also Renault Specialists hidden within here too, and im finding it so hard to find a decent garage to look after my car)

Please help! Thanks Drew

I'm not qualified to give advice on the damage, but if you're not confident in the garage to do the work and you're having doubts, have it taken elsewhere to someone you are confident can do the work and to a good standard, will now be harder though as they've got to finish a job someone else has started. Where are you based?

You can cobble a knackered engine back together to get it to run, and most of the time it will run OK for normal use but personally id be checking the conrod bearings etc, pistons might be ok, might not be. Cam is scrap.

Might be wrong, sounds like the garage just want to chuck it back together like most places, get it running in a fashion and out the door.

The cylinder walls are fucked, that's a re-bore and over-sized piston job.

f**k the entire engine off and find a replacement.

R3k1355 said:

The cylinder walls are fucked, that's a re-bore and over-sized piston job.

f**k the entire engine off and find a replacement.

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Not 100% sure can say that without more pictures.

As Brigsy has said, they will put it back together and it will run. I would be more concerned over the amount of swarf and s**t you see in the cylinders - what are they planning to do with that? Leave it?

The cam lobe damage is an easy miss. If you remove the burrs then the cam will also run again.

Would I do any of this on my own engine. No.

I’m not qualified to speak about any of the damage, but I will say if you are not confident in this garage to do the work to a standard that you’re happy with then you will never be happy with the car when you get it back.
I would take it to someone who is recommended on here. That way at least you know the job will be done correctly, whatever you decide to do regarding replacing the engine or just fitting the head.

I wouldn't run that bottom end unless I was turbo skint and needed it back together because it was my only transport.

As already said I'd be concerned about the rod bearings, the cam is scrap and there's some decent gouging in the cylinders right where you don't want it.

It's pretty telling that the garage already haven't done simple things that you've asked them to, and seem quite belligerent

Personally..

I'd be going to a different garage. Definitely a specialist not a generalist, which is what it sounds like you've got.

Or, finding a trusted seller and buying a second hand engine to fit.

Cam - toast
Cylinder walls - toast
Piston far right first pic looks to of kissed the valve and left an impression in it.
Swarf everywhere - going to be in the oil. That'll get in to crank bearings and all sorts if it's not already found its way there.

You can put it back together, but I fear you'd be pulling that back out within a week.

Touring_Rob said:

Not 100% sure can say that without more pictures.

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Can only see 3 cylinders, and there's clear damage on the walls of two of them. Even then we can barely see half of the actual cylinder, so extremely likely there'd be more.

Considering he's lashed out £700 on a decent cylinder head, you'd not wanna re-use that block without very serious inspection of the damage and wear.
I certainly wouldn't recommend to anyone they should re-use that in it's current state.

I know i know, but you can have some pretty decent scoring on cylinders and still mostly be alright. More concerning is how deep the damage is which you can't see from the images.

Tbf to the garage they are likely looking at the colour of the coolant and the fact its missed cam belt changes and maybe not assuming it needs to be 100% as new.

Touring_Rob said:

I know i know, but you can have some pretty decent scoring on cylinders and still mostly be alright. More concerning is how deep the damage is which you can't see from the images.

Tbf to the garage they are likely looking at the colour of the coolant and the fact its missed cam belt changes and maybe not assuming it needs to be 100% as new.

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The picture focuses on the second cylinder, but the party looks to have been going on in the 3rd?

Couldn't tell if it was coolant or damage.

OP needs to go down and have a proper look, get some better pics

Brigsy said:

You can cobble a knackered engine back together to get it to run, and most of the time it will run OK for normal use but personally id be checking the conrod bearings etc, pistons might be ok, might not be. Cam is scrap.

Might be wrong, sounds like the garage just want to chuck it back together like most places, get it running in a fashion and out the door.

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Totally the impression im getting now. Especially them saying they wouldn't have told me if i didnt ask for pictures prior to them starting. I'm imagining a few months down the line sinking allost 3k into t and the bottim end goes bang....nothing to do with then though!

That's a proper Bradford/Birmingham/Luton "get it running and get it sold" fix

You need to namedrop the mongs happy to pump that through their doors before some other unsuspecting chuff gets their fingers burnt by them

So ive had this car since 2015 and imediately got the cambekt changed at 98k at Tech1 in Pool with a few other jobs, was exoecting to be doung the timing again this year at 140k pretty much dead on when the aux belt took the timing out. Was recomended this place as they timed up a fellow RS enthusiasts tuned 197 and have been on the search for an RS specialist for ages and my other choice doesn't do rebuilds anymore.

I aint flush with money and this is skinting me right out and causing stress woth family members because how much i put this car first over family...timings are crap tbf...but i would rather pull out now than waste an expensive head on a damaged bottom end.

My boss lent me his van temporarily and thankfully my old man bought me a reliable daily to get to work so this now isn't my daily and only transport thankfully.

The garage is miffed at my last email asking to stop work as-is (he could tell my tone was harsh...obvs..after not giving me a quote or responding to me email) and let me know what the final bill is (£555+vat for 3hr stripdown and apparently 4hr rebuild (if i heard correct ) to as it came to them...which i wanted it still stripped but ok...going to pay but not happy about it and need to seek legal advice about them not providing me the service initially that i asked for and cost me more money based on thin air essentially to not have my car fixed and need a new engine.
I apparently took the 6 weeks deciding what i was doing with it and ordering parts up i needed. They rebooked me in twice but my parts weren't ready)


Yes seeing 3 of the 4 cylinders...either last one is worse than these or so imaculate it didnt need photographing.... but yes i looked closer after saying ok to smoothing and i see dinks and chios out of the cylinder, split chunk in the piston that coukd weaken it and split or atleast cause hotspots in the cylinders. Who knows what the rods are like and from what i've seen, they like to hurl a rod or 2 when driven hard so isn't uncommon.

If anyone can recommend somewhere in Cornwall. I am speaking to someone on Ebay regarding an engine and seen a LY and Blue in the background of the pics of a ph1 engine they have for sale and seems pretty genuine.
Alos got the head from someone known on here (didnt realise at the time) and is a wealth of knowledge...maybe a holiday to Newquay is needed

I've been told theybhave had enough kow, packed everything up and i need to sort collecting and pay the invoice. I will be giving it a good look ocer personally once i get it to where it ends up being. Also need ti find somewhere or its going on my drive just sitting until i can donit on weekends, but tbh im liking that idea more as ive been doing kore work myself recently and quite enjoy it and can make sure its being done to my liking.
Just need a full garage setup of tools

I appreciate all the comments ive got so far and ypu lot have helped witg me thinking im not going mad by not wanting to fit a new head to this, by kot continuing isnt the wrong answer, and needing kore to go on than just these pictures.
You guys are amazing! And the fact you wouldn't if it was your car unless you had no other option than to get to work.

Im sorry I haven't quoted or replied as i'm not too good at getting all of that into this so just tried to blanket answer everyone in here.

Again

As said above, looking at the pics closer of the cylinders, id say that block is fcuked/needs rebore.

Prob better off finding a 2nd hand engine sadly.

Brigsy said:

You can cobble a knackered engine back together to get it to run, and most of the time it will run OK for normal use but personally id be checking the conrod bearings etc, pistons might be ok, might not be. Cam is scrap.

Might be wrong, sounds like the garage just want to chuck it back together like most places, get it running in a fashion and out the door.

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This is exactly correct. My first (of many) bottom end failures was a couple of weeks after a timing belt failure.

I’m the number one member of team “f**k it and send it” but the additional damage done by the valves being mashed is pretty significant more often than not. It’s not unheard of to end up with a wiggly crank on top of the rest of the damage in your pics which brings on a new world of delightful and destructive issues.

If you’re keeping the car, and especially given you’re £xxx into a head, I’d absolutely be doing that properly and rebuilding the bottom end too. Even just simple maths - it provides the peace of mind you’re not going to have to pay all that labour again when it s***s its pants.

Yarp said:

This is exactly correct. My first (of many) bottom end failures was a couple of weeks after a timing belt failure.

I’m the number one member of team “f**k it and send it” but the additional damage done by the valves being mashed is pretty significant more often than not. It’s not unheard of to end up with a wiggly crank on top of the rest of the damage in your pics which brings on a new world of delightful and destructive issues.

If you’re keeping the car, and especially given you’re £xxx into a head, I’d absolutely be doing that properly and rebuilding the bottom end too. Even just simple maths - it provides the peace of mind you’re not going to have to pay all that labour again when it s***s its pants.

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Yes exactly my thoughts. If the bottom end goes at any time, the head is gone too.

I am looking at a 2nd engine, which i was looking around at the price differences at the start of this whole process but never got a quote for swapping out.

Ive seen a video on youtube of X17 CUP having its engine replaced and looks doable with the right tools (and decent weather, I dont have a garage unfortunately) and having a broken engine means i can get my hands dirty stripping each and every piece off and inspect it and dream i'm in a rallycar pit crew . Its always interested me to rebuild an engine and this ironically is maybe my chance and something i said years ago that if ever the engine went i would swap it and hope to build a better one

Drewski172 said:

Yes exactly my thoughts. If the bottom end goes at any time, the head is gone too.

I am looking at a 2nd engine, which i was looking arpund at the price differences at the start of this whole prpcess but never got a quote foe swapping out.

Ive seen a video on youtube of X17 CUP having its engine replaced and looks doable with the right tools and decent weather (I dont have a garage unfortunately) and having a broken emgine means i cam get my hands dirty stripping each and every piece off and inspect it and dream im in a rallycar pit crew . Its always interested me to revuild an emgine and this ironically maybe my chance lol

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Dead easy man. You don’t need anything more than a couple of decking boards with some castors screwed in to get it out

Heres some other pics. This time of my reconditioned head.

Cleaned, acid dipped and de-coked, flow-checked, new exhaust valves, 16 new valve guides and seals, all vakves rehoned then skimmed.
DId want to port-match it but with rushing to get it ready for the garage to instal i skipped this stage.

Yarp said:

Dead easy man. You don’t need anything more than a couple of decking boards with some castors screwed in to get it out
View attachment 1801818

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Not even needing a crane?

Drewski172 said:

Not even needing a crane?

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Nah, just dropped it straight out. Not sketchy at all .

Actually being serious, the engine removal is pretty straight forward. A lot of people seem to opt to go out the top with a hoist but out the bottom is a doddle. If you drop the subframe you can carefully lower the engine with a jack onto something once the mounts are undone and then wheel it out. The only downside is the subframe will either take 20 minutes or 9 hours to remove. No middle ground and entirely depends on how nicely the bolts want to play.

I'm all for repairing and keeping things goings (my parent's shed should have been condemned in 2020, but i've been patching it up ever since, and will do again next week!) but this this needs to be right. I say get a fresh engine sorted and sell the head you have (or use it). Plenty of members on here have had engines replaced when they've gone pop.

Yarp said:

Nah, just dropped it straight out. Not sketchy at all .

Actually being serious, the engine removal is pretty straight forward. A lot of people seem to opt to go out the top with a hoist but out the bottom is a doddle. If you drop the subframe you can carefully lower the engine with a jack onto something once the mounts are undone and then wheel it out. The only downside is the subframe will either take 20 minutes or 9 hours to remove. No middle ground and entirely depends on how nicely the bolts want to play.

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Wellllllllllll........i had a new clutch put in 1400 miles ago amd they needed to cut the subframe bolts put and refit new ones...so im guessing pretty quickly

Drewski172 said:

Ive seen a video on youtube of X17 CUP having its engine replaced and looks doable with the right tools

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That would be me.

ex-Chinese Dave said:

I'm all for repairing and keeping things goings (my parent's shed should have been condemned in 2020, but i've been patching it up ever since, and will do again next week!) but this this needs to be right. I say get a fresh engine sorted and sell the head you have (or use it). Plenty of members on here have had engines replaced when they've gone pop.

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Yes back in the day they were cheap, npt so much now.
Am in 2 minds to sell the head on, or keep it, fit a new engine then over time build a new bottom end, so id have essentially a new engine when its all back together.

Is it easy to time yourself woth the genuine timing tools? Thinking if thats the case then maybe do it all. Have the Megane 225 keyed crank pulley to go on too to stop the potential for slipping in the future.
All my timing kit is genuine parts from FrogJam and RPD. Aux pretentiiner is less than 5 years old too and sub 10k miles when i replaced the alternator....bit of a Triggers Broom this car

Drewski172 said:

Wellllllllllll........i had a new clutch put in 1400 miles ago amd they needed to cut the subframe bolts put and refit new ones...so im guessing pretty quickly

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Cutting bolts off speaks volumes about the garage sadly, subframe bolts simple pop the cage off and gun out with cranked spanner on top.

Bowz said:

That would be me.

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Howdy! Im the Flamer...who has your old head

Brigsy said:

Cutting bolts off speaks volumes if the garage sadly, subframe bolts simple pop the cage off and gun out with cranked spanner on top.

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Yup. And i spent 8 hours changing the clutch cable because it was getting high and stuck in gear...only to find not the clutch cable but some loose bolts connecting the clutch to the flywheel. A local mechanic / friend of my boss cranked it round from spinning the passenger wheel in the air whikst in gear and tightened the bolts up with a 10mm through a sighting hole, absolute legend!....I have a lot of good luck with garages! Hence why ive started to try doing things myself.
Or to find a specialist!

I wonder if the engine wasn't put back in straight after the clutch refit and the aux belt was catching on something to cause it to frey.

Drewski172 said:

Yes back in the day they were cheap, npt so much now.
Am in 2 minds to sell the head on, or keep it, fit a new engine then over time build a new bottom end, so id have essentially a new engine when its all back together.

Is it easy to time yourself woth the genuine timing tools? Thinking if thats the case then maybe do it all. Have the Megane 225 keyed crank pulley to go on too to stop the potential for slipping in the future.
All my timing kit is genuine parts from FrogJam and RPD. Aux pretentiiner is less than 5 years old too and sub 10k miles when i replaced the alternator....bit of a Triggers Broom this car

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I wouldn't want to time it myself even with the correct timing tools. There's always going to be something that pops up that'll need an experienced head to sort out. I did strip and rebuild the head on a 1982 XR3i after the timing belt snapped in 1991, but my boss at the time was an ex-Ford head mechanic and I was under his instruction. I wouldn't want to do anything like that on an F4R....i've enough trouble trying to find a squeek from under the car!

ex-Chinese Dave said:

I wouldn't want to time it myself even with the correct timing tools. There's always going to be something that pops up that'll need an experienced head to sort out. I did strip and rebuild the head on a 1982 XR3i after the timing belt snapped in 1991, but my boss at the time was an ex-Ford head mechanic and I was under his instruction. I wouldn't want to do anything like that on an F4R....i've enough trouble trying to find a squeek from under the car!

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Yeah i know what you mean. Ive usually had my Dad on hand when fixing cars when younger as he used to be mechanically minded and did rallying in his Escorts and Mini...I kept being the weakest link so thought rather give to garages...now its become apparant that they aint all that great when it comes to these little bundles of joy as they can be quite tempramental, but getting my hands dirty again and the sense of achievement when i actually get it done is really nice feeling!

Done now, but surely the aux belt wasn't 10 years old?

hopgop1 said:

Done now, but surely the aux belt wasn't 10 years old?

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No the aux belt was bought end of 2022, so fitted with alternator in 2023. Seems like my order for the alternator from RPD has dissapeared unless it was before i setup an account.