172.182... Last of the raw hot hatches?

[team_penetrator]

Was thinking about this the other day... Will anyone make a hot hatch so old school again? Great handling, light weight etc?

Or will everything get lardier, heavier and more refined...?

I mean, the Cup doesnt even have ABS for gods sake and there are very few cars, let alone reasonably quick ones without it...

TP

 

[edde]

The'll always be chnage I thinkl the Golf GTi is a good example of what will happen the golf got big and fat the lupo gti then became that the old GTi was and the new Golf got to be a big car but still with famous handling charecteristsic but a bit bigger.

 

[dk]

Was thinking about this the other day... Will anyone make a hot hatch so old school again? Great handling, light weight etc?

Or will everything get lardier, heavier and more refined...?

I mean, the Cup doesnt even have ABS for gods sake and there are very few cars, let alone reasonably quick ones without it...

TP

ABS is mandatory over a certain production now so i doubt there will be many cars without any more. Unfortunately (although you wouldn't be saying that if you had a crash!) cars no. 1 prority now is safety and that makes them heavy.

 

[blink172]

Im sure people said the same thing when R5T/Willams productions ended and now there is the Trophy and Cup.

Things evolve, if they dont they get boring.

 

[gazcaddy]

Im not sure you can call any of them raw except the 172 cup. People say the 182 is raw and it is compared to others but it has alot of luxuries in it.

I think the 172 cup will be the last of the raw hot hatches, as I dont think there is enough demand out there for this type of car

 

[Englebert]

Cars like the Mk1 Golf and Renault 5 Turbo are deathtraps, especially with amount of cars on the road today.

Ultimately manufacturers are only reacting to what the market wants, they'd rather build cheaper lighter cars i'm sure. Hopefully as expensive lighter materials filter down the smaller cars we will have hot hatches closer to the 100kg mark again.

 

[Neil G]

I wouldn't call the 172/182 full fat models 'raw'...My 172 feels pretty well nailed together and refined compared to some of the sheds I've driven!

 

[MarkCup]

Mine's raw as f*** - gives me headaches and makes my ears bleed

 

[Rich]

I dont think that ABS really has much to do with Rawness. You can still have a raw drivers car with it, I much prefer the added saftey net It gives over my 205 GTi which was on 120 odd brake.

I am sure something will come along in the evolution.

MK1 Golf to 205 GTI which was replaced by the next breed - Williams, 306 Rallye and 106 GTi, they are supassed by the 172 Cup, 182 and Trophy and so it should go on.

Yeah things are getting a bit lardy now but someone will see sense no doubt and build another proper Hot Hatch soon.

 

[Neil G]

According to evo mag they thought the Trophy was the hot hatch benchmark of all time...never driven one though so don't know how it compares to say a 205gti which I have owned in the past.

 

[Scudetto]

It's an evolution thing. It took VW 20 years to work out how to make the new Golf GTI worthy of the name and at the same time to make it safe, too. This question has arisen every three years or so - some one asks 'is the hot hatch dead?', and the answer is:

Strada Abarth TC 2.0
205 GTI 1.9 ('86)
Golf GTI 16v ('86)
Delta Integrale ('88)
Escort Cosworth ('92)
Clio 172 ('98)
Civic TypeR

etc etc etc (apologies for the cars I have forgotten. A reflection on my memory, not the cars)

No, the hot hatch ain't dead. It's about to get better and better and better...

g

 

[warine_warrior]

No, the hot hatch ain't dead. It's about to get better and better and better...

g

what he said

 

[Thomss]

I love hot hatches

 

[Rich]

No, the hot hatch ain't dead. It's about to get better and better and better...

g

I would'nt go that far yet, nothing that looks to meet that promise still at the moment!

 

[AOKCUP]

Sorry but I would never class an Intergrale or an Escort Cossie as a hot hatch !

And no the hot hatch and RS / GTI models are not dead, they all come back sooner or later - might not be the same in terms of handling and weight but far better in terms of safety.

In the summer (when it's dry) my daily car is a 1974 Escort MK1 Mexico and that still has drum brakes on the rear !

You really have to drive an old skool motor to appreciate how good the cars we now own really are, but still for me there's nothing as good as driving........ S I D E W A Y S !

 

[paul_h172]

Sorry but I would never class an Intergrale or an Escort Cossie as a hot hatch !quote]
escort cossie is classed as a hatch back so is the leon cupra r

 

[Scudetto]

As an aside - I don't want to split hairs, but is the Cossworth not a hot hatch? It's not quite a super car, and neither's the Delta (remember, there were skinny bodied versions of the Delta HF Turbo, before it grew the fat arches).

g

 

[AOKCUP]

^^ Would you still class the Cossie as a HOT hatch though ^^

I'm 36, grew up on Escorts MK1 & 2's, then moved on to the Golf MK1 GTI and the 205 GTI, for me there has never been a better hot hatch than the 1.9 GTI, it had everything a hot hatch should be.

The Escort is too big surely to be classed a hot hatch, just because it is a hatchback, I still don't think it compares to the old light cars from the early 1980's.

So would you class an Audi Quattro as a hot hatch as well ? That's only got two doors and a hatch ? There's no way the Escort / Audi is a hot hatch

 

[AOKCUP]

This could be a long debate ! I guess the Escort XR3 / XR3i / RS1600i / RS Turbo would be classed as a hot hatch so maybe the Escort Cossie would be as well. Could be a good Friday afternoon debate

 

[Scudetto]

the 1980 ur-quattro was not, and never was, a hatch. It has a fixed rear bench, and a stubby little opening for the boot.

A hot hatch should be based on a car that's positioned as a small to medium sized hatchback. So, the 1992 Audi Quattro is not a hot hatch either, as that was positioned as a coupe.

and yep, id still call the Cossie a hot hatch ;-)))

g

 

[Rich]

The Cossie is a hatchback so I guess it counts! Based on the Sierra floor pan it may be a little oversized compared to a 205 or Clio though

The main things for me that makes the Escos more than a hot hatch is the purchase cost, insurance etc, it was hardly in XR2 money to buy new.

 

[tameracingdriver]

Most of the hot hatches now out or on the horizon are just too soft, and too luxurious. I know the 172/182 are pretty soft also compared to the older stuff, but I've had one of the older hatches and to be fair the 172/182 are like a modern/old school hybrid for me - they have the best of both. The newer stuff is just too wimpy (albeit quick). You may as well have a BMW over any of the newer stuff nowadays.

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

PMSL @ the 172/182 being raw. Get real.

 

[team_penetrator]

PMSL @ the 172/182 being raw. Get real.

Okay... Is there a hot hatch AS raw on sale today? CTR? 206? ST? Id say it is raw compared to them.

Granted its not a TVR or a Westfield, but that wasnt the question...

 

[team_penetrator]

The Cossie is a hatchback so I guess it counts! Based on the Sierra floor pan it may be a little oversized compared to a 205 or Clio though

The main things for me that makes the Escos more than a hot hatch is the purchase cost, insurance etc, it was hardly in XR2 money to buy new.

To me a hot hatch is front wheel drive. Stuff like Escort Cossies are in a different class, along with Integrales, scoobys, evos...

 

[Swervin_Mervin]

That's not what you asked originally though. The same could be asked when the mk3 clio is phased out.

The answer will, more than likely, always be no.

 

[Scudetto]

how are we defining raw?

A 172 is less refined overall than say, a new Golf GTI. And, IMHO, the Golf puts a tiny bit more fudge (no jokes) between you and what it's doing, so the C172 feels more tactile.

However, a 172 is prolly less raw than a 5GT Turbo. But is that because the 5GT is more intimate...or just cruder?

g

 

[TheJesus]

To me a hot hatch is front wheel drive. Stuff like Escort Cossies are in a different class, along with Integrales, scoobys, evos...

exactly, what they also fail to mention is that hot hatch may cover these other cars, but the phrase came about and is in direct regards to fast super-mini catagory cars... no small-mid sized family hatches with ridiculous body kits, recaro bucket seats and boost yo

 

[b3ns0n]

no doubt in twenty years time not only will there be no "raw" hot hatches, but all cars will be electronically limited to the speed limit at all times. generally, there is a negative correlation between fun/rawness and safety, but manufacturers are going to get better and better at building fast, safe cars - something which in the long run will benefit everyone.

 

[cosworth]

I wouldn't call the Escort Cosworth a hot hatch, simply because it is in a class above "hot" performance.

I'd call a true hot hatch a hatchback with a near identical chassis to its lower model siblings with uprated drivetrain/suspension and usually has added body "flair" and sportier interior.

The Escort Cosworth is based on the saloon sapphire 4x4 chassis and running gear with a Karmann designed/built running body.

 

[stokedRich]

172 Cup DEFFO raw - been driving/riding performance bikes for nearly 20 years and the 172 Cup is (nearly) as much fun to drive as a motorcycle is to ride - there isn't another Hot Hatch on the planet I could say that about...a totally focused uncompromising driving machine that is as much fun as it can be unforgiving, one mistake and you are truly fcucked which is why I like it so much - bit like a bike in that respect.

I doubt there will ever be another car like the 172 Cup, it was after all a hot hatch marketed squarely @ Competition driving, In the future I can see the power going up but so will the weight and the number of 'driver safety aids' which we all know dilute the driving experience..
the Pug 1.9 GTi was another classic, gone but not forgotten.
- bit before my time this but an honorable mention must go out to the original mini cooper s? - a racer I know used to have one and he said they would wheelspin in 1st, 2nd and 3rd and we all know about the handling...

Oy! Volkswagen - can we have some of those VW Golf GTI Cups please?
http://www.vw-cup.co.uk/cars.htm - alas I think we already know the answer...

 

[tameracingdriver]

something which in the long run will benefit everyone.

Except those who want to not only enjoy driving, but actually feel in control of what their car is doing. Too many modern cars undoubtedly fast and safe, but also totally boring and dull.

I can see myself keeping my car for a long time, because frankly I refuse to get myself into debt for one of these new age "hot hatches".