197 clarkson review

[AlexS]

As long as your happy with it, I agree safety is something that modern day buyers want however I don't think any of the cars you listed are a modern day interpretation of a 205 GTI and whilst all are great fun they contain less and less of the true essence of a hot hatch with every evolution.

Things like cruise control, air con etc don't belong in a proper hot hatch. I agree the most of the market want these things, hence why most have them but the Cup was meant to be a hardcore version. It missed the mark in this respect, 20kg saving!!

 

[Iridium]

Pretty fair review - he didn't slate it, just said it needed to be a bit quicker. What's wrong with that?

Dan

 

[dk]

Pug 205 Gti not a hot hatch then?
VW Golf Mk1 GTi?
Pug 106 gti?

It depends what you define as a hot hatch really, power is absolutely irrelevant.

there are loads of hot hatches at the moment that are worthy, just because they have got safer, doesn't mean they aren't as much fun, the R27 clio has amazing cornering capabilities, and its not boring to drive, the corsa VXR, again exciting, and then the R26, astra vxr, and focus st, all great hot hatches.

Lets put it this way, i'd rather have a crash in a 5* car than one that with disintegrate at my time of need!

I don't think safety has anything to do with it, a hot hatch to me should be small and light, cheap to run, and provide the maximum fun/ £.
All that matters is a decent chassis, direct steering and a willing engine.
The new breed of hot hatches have far to many non necessities and are also far too big. I will admit the R26 is the most focused out of the ones you list.

power is not irrelevant at all, its what makes the hot part, and none of those mentioned had 100bhp or below i don't think?

And its all about safety now, but a car can be fun and safe, my car is a 5* safety rating yet I have massive amounts of fun in it, more fun than i did in my 106gti and my 182, its a faster car, handles great and is a hatch so why can't it be great?

Just because cars are heavier, they have more power to compensate and engineering has moved on too, otherwise people would still be arguing that a williams is better than a 197 and than things haven't moved on whereas they obviously have.

Just because the way hot hatches are made nowadays is different, doesn't mean they are not as good. If i was to get into a 205 gti now i would abcolutely hate it, back in the day they were good, now they are skips (shoot me!)

Its like remembering how good the A-team and knightrider were, when you watch them back now, they just aren't as good, its the memory that makes you think they are still that good all those years on!

 

[dk]

As long as your happy with it, I agree safety is something that modern day buyers want however I don't think any of the cars you listed are a modern day interpretation of a 205 GTI and whilst all are great fun they contain less and less of the true essence of a hot hatch with every evolution.

Things like cruise control, air con etc don't belong in a proper hot hatch. I agree the most of the market want these things, hence why most have them but the Cup was meant to be a hardcore version. It missed the mark in this respect, 20kg saving!!

but whats the true essence of a hotch hatch, a large engine in a small car that handles great and that what we still have today, its jsut the weight has increased and the power to compensate, hot hatches are faster than they used to be and handle better too, people just can't let go of the past and lose perception.

 

[AlexS]

As long as your happy with it, I agree safety is something that modern day buyers want however I don't think any of the cars you listed are a modern day interpretation of a 205 GTI and whilst all are great fun they contain less and less of the true essence of a hot hatch with every evolution.

Things like cruise control, air con etc don't belong in a proper hot hatch. I agree the most of the market want these things, hence why most have them but the Cup was meant to be a hardcore version. It missed the mark in this respect, 20kg saving!!

but whats the true essence of a hotch hatch, a large engine in a small car that handles great and that what we still have today, its jsut the weight has increased and the power to compensate, hot hatches are faster than they used to be and handle better too, people just can't let go of the past and lose perception.

I accept that, the 197 FF does that all very well and is very good.
The 197 Cup on the other hand in my eyes was a missed opportunity. Its not a bad car but it could of been so much better. They could of made a modern take on the original hot hatch, strip of weight and driver aids, all it currently serves as is a cheaper alternative for people who can't quite stretch to an FF, it broadens Renaults potential market. Cup = marketing excersise.

 

[dk]

As long as your happy with it, I agree safety is something that modern day buyers want however I don't think any of the cars you listed are a modern day interpretation of a 205 GTI and whilst all are great fun they contain less and less of the true essence of a hot hatch with every evolution.

Things like cruise control, air con etc don't belong in a proper hot hatch. I agree the most of the market want these things, hence why most have them but the Cup was meant to be a hardcore version. It missed the mark in this respect, 20kg saving!!

why don't they belong though (air con and cruise) as they weren't around in those types of cars back in the 80's/90's, but these things are standard on most cars now so why not include them, a car doesn't have to have a poverty spec just to be a hot hatch, its just that back in the day those options weren't available anyway, if they were they probably would have had them unless it was a stripped out version like the rallye.

The 106gti had leather interior, did that make it not a great hatch?

Hot hatches used to have sunroofs rather than aircon, you don't see that now, and that makes the body more taught not having that weekness in the roof so actually helps todays modern hatches!

 

[dk]

but whats the true essence of a hotch hatch, a large engine in a small car that handles great and that what we still have today, its jsut the weight has increased and the power to compensate, hot hatches are faster than they used to be and handle better too, people just can't let go of the past and lose perception.

I accept that, the 197 FF does that all very well and is very good.
The 197 Cup on the other hand in my eyes was a missed opportunity. Its not a bad car but it could of been so much better. They could of made a modern take on the original hot hatch, strip of weight and driver aids, all it currently serves as is a cheaper alternative for people who can't quite stretch to an FF, it broadens Renaults potential market. Cup = marketing excersise.

i agree, its a marketing exercise, but what more could they lose in reality, its lost quite a lot, hasn't got the air conditioning etc. It has driving aids to keep you safe, anyone that drives a car with esp on the road with it turned off is a complete idiot IMO, its there as a safety net and if you you are driving in such a way that it interferes with your driving then you are driving beyond your capabilities, you can drive a car fast without taking esp off, i never take mine off, even on track days mostly, the esp is set so well on renaults that it doesn't interfer, and if you see it come on when on track , again, you are driving beyond your limits as its set quite high on renaultsports so as not to spoil enjoyment of the car.

And we all know what happens to cars without abs as we find out each year with 172 cup owners, again, its a safety feature and only comes on in an emergency anyway so why go without it, if you crash you won't be moaning it was on the car!

Its people that can't drive properly fast that tend to moan about driving aids becuase if you are a good driver they really don't interfer at all unless they are saving your life!

 

[AlexS]

Correct me if im wrong but it has lost 20kg, most of which was down to the removal of air con, which is an option anway that most people will add straight back on.
Driver aids are good as long as they don't interfere all the time and ruin the experience although like you say its set quite high.
I think the underlying issue is if it can't lose any more weight then it needs more power.

 

[Kneel]

Yep, he knows his onions,.. is a fan of the hot hatch genre,.. but thinks the spoiler is crap (cos it is), the car's underpowered and doesn't buy the whole 'pleb spec/cup' sh1te, "I don't need aircon I've got windows for cold air".

Both the current CTR and RS Clio have missed the mark.

Clarkson is a legend

Clarkson and Tiff Needell both regard the 197 as the best hot hatch for many years, clarksons review of the 197 says its the best hot hatch since the 205 GTI. The review posted at the start of this thread was for the 197 cup, and Clarkson pretty much says it would be good if they had added a few of the modern toys after having a huge rant about sitting in traffic.
Look:
http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/driving/new_car_reviews/article694155.ece

but Lee, we don't have to have driven the cup to know it feels slow for a car of its stats.

ALso, we don't have to have driven it to know that a car in this day and age should come with aircon, i wonder how many they will sell without the aircon option!

I don't think anyone doubts its cornering ability, and clarkson points that out too, but things like its performance and spec are all too familiar to people that have driven a 197.

haha, that just highlights exactly what I said, because you're wrong. It doesn't feel slow and it still has a decent kick at 5k rpm. In fact the shift from 2nd to 3rd gear is fantastic, the 182 always used to feel like the gears were a little to largely spaced but the Cup just takes off. The Megane on the other hand does feel slow with it's lazy power delivery and muted exhaust note.

And again, I'm not defending the Cup or my decision to swap the Trophy for it, I'm just pointing out what a load of b****cks people post on here.

I might go onto the Ferrari owners forum and start telling them what's wrong with an F430, a car I've never driven, but I'm sure from the stats I've read it's quite noisy and not nice to drive in traffic.

Having never driven a 172/182 i cant comment but the 197 certainly doesn't feel slow to me. I loved every minute of my test drive and honestly cant wait to get mine!

 

[Ian_182]

I agree they have missed a big chance to go all out and have a proper striped out hooligan like the 205gti.

As long as a car has an air bag,crumple zone and some steel stuff through the doors then its 10 times safer than the cars of old.

Opertunity lost

 

[JonC]

All Renault need to do when the current Clio is near end of life, is to apply the same principles Honda when it built its new JDM Civic Type R. Release a limited edition, stripped of all its sound deadening, thinner glass, remove all luxuries and driver aids (bar ABS), add an LSD, Sachs dampers, Recaros and then call it Renault Sport Clio Cup Trophy TypeR Hardcore.

 

[Neil G]

but whats the true essence of a hotch hatch, a large engine in a small car that handles great and that what we still have today, its jsut the weight has increased and the power to compensate, hot hatches are faster than they used to be and handle better too, people just can't let go of the past and lose perception.

I accept that, the 197 FF does that all very well and is very good.
The 197 Cup on the other hand in my eyes was a missed opportunity. Its not a bad car but it could of been so much better. They could of made a modern take on the original hot hatch, strip of weight and driver aids, all it currently serves as is a cheaper alternative for people who can't quite stretch to an FF, it broadens Renaults potential market. Cup = marketing excersise.

Couldn't agree more with that....I think that is the whole ethos behind the 197 cup, not really a proper stripped version.

 

[Steve]

I love the way people on here can make a judgement about a car they've never even driven!!

'They' still slate the Trophy on CS & thats almost 3 yrs old

 

[oneeighttwo]

If Renault are going to do a stripped out hardcore version, I doubt they would do it at the beginning of this models life. It will be a end of the line outgoing model. We will probably see a couple of face lifts before then. Look at the Megane. The R26 has come out years after the first 225 and the talk of this r26 ultimate.
The first meg 225 got slated in the beginning, now look at the reviews of the r26.
Its not a missed opertunity by Renault, there marketing department arn't stupid. The people buying the cup now will probably be trading it in in 3 years time for Clio cup ultimate, which clarkie will rave about. Why would they bring out the all singing all dancing Clio now when they can sell the cup twice to the same customer in a 3 year period.

 

[dk]

Correct me if im wrong but it has lost 20kg, most of which was down to the removal of air con, which is an option anway that most people will add straight back on.
Driver aids are good as long as they don't interfere all the time and ruin the experience although like you say its set quite high.
I think the underlying issue is if it can't lose any more weight then it needs more power.

they only lsot 20kg for a good reason though, theres not many options on the standard 197 anyway like there was on the 172, it hasn't got xenons, leather and climate etc.

SO most of the heavy stuff is already not on there anyway, and you say that most people will add air con on, well thats the point, most people want aircon, if people wanted a really stripped out car then they wouldn't be adding aircon but everyone will as its worth it for the summer months, people can't do without it anymore. If people did want something without any options they wouldn't all be speccing them with air con now would they!

 

[dk]

If Renault are going to do a stripped out hardcore version, I doubt they would do it at the beginning of this models life. It will be a end of the line outgoing model. We will probably see a couple of face lifts before then. Look at the Megane. The R26 has come out years after the first 225 and the talk of this r26 ultimate.
The first meg 225 got slated in the beginning, now look at the reviews of the r26.
Its not a missed opertunity by Renault, there marketing department arn't stupid. The people buying the cup now will probably be trading it in in 3 years time for Clio cup ultimate, which clarkie will rave about. Why would they bring out the all singing all dancing Clio now when they can sell the cup twice to the same customer in a 3 year period.

but the R26 just proves the point that you don't have to strip it out completely to get a great car, it has climate, xenons, leather/alcantera seats etc, so it still has all the toys!

 

[AlexS]

Correct me if im wrong but it has lost 20kg, most of which was down to the removal of air con, which is an option anway that most people will add straight back on.
Driver aids are good as long as they don't interfere all the time and ruin the experience although like you say its set quite high.
I think the underlying issue is if it can't lose any more weight then it needs more power.

they only lsot 20kg for a good reason though, theres not many options on the standard 197 anyway like there was on the 172, it hasn't got xenons, leather and climate etc.

SO most of the heavy stuff is already not on there anyway, and you say that most people will add air con on, well thats the point, most people want aircon, if people wanted a really stripped out car then they wouldn't be adding aircon but everyone will as its worth it for the summer months, people can't do without it anymore. If people did want something without any options they wouldn't all be speccing them with air con now would they!

I think the point we are getting at here is there are two very different markets. As aforementioned there is the young professionals money to burn playstation generation who know nothing about cars but like the idea of a hot hatch, obviously they expect all that tat as standard etc.

Then you have the enthusiasts who would be interested in a proper cup, aka properly stripped out, loads more weight can be lost out of there.
In my eyes besides the price there is no benefit whatsoever to buying a 197 Cup over a FF.

 

[AlexS]

If Renault are going to do a stripped out hardcore version, I doubt they would do it at the beginning of this models life. It will be a end of the line outgoing model. We will probably see a couple of face lifts before then. Look at the Megane. The R26 has come out years after the first 225 and the talk of this r26 ultimate.
The first meg 225 got slated in the beginning, now look at the reviews of the r26.
Its not a missed opertunity by Renault, there marketing department arn't stupid. The people buying the cup now will probably be trading it in in 3 years time for Clio cup ultimate, which clarkie will rave about. Why would they bring out the all singing all dancing Clio now when they can sell the cup twice to the same customer in a 3 year period.

but the R26 just proves the point that you don't have to strip it out completely to get a great car, it has climate, xenons, leather/alcantera seats etc, so it still has all the toys!

Im sure it is a great car but I don't give a s**t about all the toys. Im just interested in a pure driving experience, I would much rather pay less and have none of that rubbish or pay the same and have them spend the money on getting more power out the engine.

 

[Se7en172]

but whats the true essence of a hotch hatch, a large engine in a small car that handles great and that what we still have today, its jsut the weight has increased and the power to compensate, hot hatches are faster than they used to be and handle better too, people just can't let go of the past and lose perception.

I accept that, the 197 FF does that all very well and is very good.
The 197 Cup on the other hand in my eyes was a missed opportunity. Its not a bad car but it could of been so much better. They could of made a modern take on the original hot hatch, strip of weight and driver aids, all it currently serves as is a cheaper alternative for people who can't quite stretch to an FF, it broadens Renaults potential market. Cup = marketing excersise.

Fully Specced 197FF are being bought for £700-800 more than a fully specced 197cup, so Renaults idea to capture the market has failed!

 

[dandycaptain]

Surely, at least to most people, weight and size (or lack of both) are the keys to making a zesty, fun car. A petrol motor with 120bhp in a small 800kg car is a laugh a minute, whereas in my experience 180bhp in a relatively large, heavy car is ok, but just not as exciting. Safety is all well and good, but half the time people seem to drive so badly because they believe they're 'safe.' I'm by no means directing that at ANYONE on here, but when you see young women hitting 95mph down the M6 in the pouring rain at just above freezing when they've got 2 kids on the back seats... people just don't think because they think they're safe. If people were more aware they were at risk then they might take more care.
Anyway, I applaud the modern safety technologies for what they are, I just think their weight ruins the way modern 'hot hatches' behave compared to older ones. And I also applaud the R26, for the amount of praise it has won particularly from circuit drivers. I'm sure it's a brilliant car, but it's meant for people who've grown out of that true hot hatch ethos. That's absolutely fine by me by the way; not meant to be a criticism in any way.

 

[tbellamy]

Reading all these statements is rather making me depressed regarding my soon to be 197 Cup.

After reading all of these comments its making me consider cancelling my 197 Cup Order.

 

[Se7en172]

Reading all these statements is rather making me depressed regarding my soon to be 197 Cup.

After reading all of these comments its making me consider cancelling my 197 Cup Order.

Don't cancel it it's a Clarkson review for god sake! The car is superb

 

[Marky_]

Aye. Don't let them get you down mate.

 

[jayxx83]

Reading all these statements is rather making me depressed regarding my soon to be 197 Cup.

After reading all of these comments its making me consider cancelling my 197 Cup Order.

LOL, you wont hate your car mate, trust me its awesome... the numbing down is typical of all newer hot hatches... you will just have the best of the new bunch imo.

 

[leeds_182]

Its all down to personal perception and opinion.

You could say that Clarksons opinion holds a little more weight as he is a motoring journalist with 25 yeads experience but as long as the person who owns the car is happy who gives a f**k?

There are still a lot of 197 haters on here, the same as there was a lot of 182 haters on here when it first came out and the majority of williams owners think that the modern clios are gash.

Different folks, different strokes.

 

[tbellamy]

Do you think Renault will work on a tuned version of the 197 and maybe launch a higher powered version ?

Just seems wierd they release the cup which is only 20kg lighter.

The fact is I dont want to buy it and say a few months down the line they launch a quicker revision!

 

[jayxx83]

Do you think Renault will work on a tuned version of the 197 and maybe launch a higher powered version ?

Just seems wierd they release the cup which is only 20kg lighter.

The fact is I dont want to buy it and say a few months down the line they launch a quicker revision!

I reckon by the end of summer there will be some sort of upgrade.

 

[oneeighttwo]

Do you think Renault will work on a tuned version of the 197 and maybe launch a higher powered version ?

Just seems wierd they release the cup which is only 20kg lighter.

The fact is I dont want to buy it and say a few months down the line they launch a quicker revision!

I doubt they will launch a more powerful version just a different flavour otherwise the Clio will be competing with the Megane.

If you waited and waited you'd never buy as new cars or variations are coming out all the time. Buy it. Its my favorite car at the moment!

 

[Ian_182]

Bound to be an upgrade at some time,maybe with trophy type suspension.But that will be it.They have 1 unit for the 197 and until a new model comes out they wont touch the engine until they have made there money

 

[dandycaptain]

Reading all these statements is rather making me depressed regarding my soon to be 197 Cup.

After reading all of these comments its making me consider cancelling my 197 Cup Order.

No no, don't do that, I reckon nearly all of us rate the 197 as a blindingly good car, but some of us think that the 182 has a more aggressive feel that makes it more fun. Bonkers, if you will but it's aaaaaaaaaall opinion. However... if you fancy a direct swap, your 197 cup for my 182, just say the word :rasp:

 

[tbellamy]

Dont know what I want to do now to be honest, because I want something quick, not slower then my current 182. I know the Cup is amazing for handling but performance wise, I just dont know what to get......Any ideas for the best berformance hatch at the moment ?

 

[jayxx83]

wait imo, they are all a bit soft apart from the r26. thats the only one that would get my cash at the moment.

 

[oneeighttwo]

wait imo, they are all a bit soft apart from the r26. thats the only one that would get my cash at the moment.

I thought the r26 was softer then the cup because it has more toys and the soft touch dash?

I would'nt cancel my order just because of Clarkson's review. Lets be fair 0.xx of a second makes no difference in the real world. Unless you prefer the power delivery of a turbo or think it might be too slow on track as you won't ever extract any cars full potential on the road then cancel it.

What are you going to wait for if you cancel? A good driver in a cup would leave a crap driver in a faster car no worrys. If your waiting for something thats going to be half a second quicker to 60 then I think your probably waisting all the fun you could be having in the cup in the mean time!!

 

[dandycaptain]

Dont know what I want to do now to be honest, because I want something quick, not slower then my current 182. I know the Cup is amazing for handling but performance wise, I just dont know what to get......Any ideas for the best berformance hatch at the moment ?

Depends on how you like your hot hatches! If you prefer turbocharged engines then (AND I HATE SAYING THIS!!) the new model Mini Cooper S has a superb engine and gearbox, and point to point on road it'll be at least as fast as a 197. On the track the 197 is better cos it has a blindingly good chassis, and tbh that's where my own money would go just because it's more my kind of thing. Not to mention the Mini is a bit ghey. Rich daughter's first car etc etc.