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406 Brembo's
- Thread starter phchloe
- Start date
M
mini-valver
As above. You'd need brackets made to a disc size.
Thing with the 406 Brembo 4 pots... and really any Brembo 4 pot of that family they aren't really very good and to be honest you'd be better off rebuilding the standard calipers with new seals and slides and running PF 97's or 01's on a decent disc.
However this won't allow you to brag that you have 4 pot calipers.
The Megane 225/Clio 197 Brembos are a completely different 'family' of caliper, much more modern and really very good for the cost. However you don't need those on a Mk2 Clio either.
Cheers
M
However this won't allow you to brag that you have 4 pot calipers.
The Megane 225/Clio 197 Brembos are a completely different 'family' of caliper, much more modern and really very good for the cost. However you don't need those on a Mk2 Clio either.
Cheers
M
M
mini-valver
Bah, hater. My standard brakes were pish and needed discs, pads and a refurb. I dropped on in that the seller wanted a VTS axle, which I had. Made sense to me and SBV116 runs the same calipers, albeit Clio specific on his cup and highly rates them.
Hmm, they were stock on my fiat coupe 20vt - no probs here class brakes.
They run them on the FRS & 406 coupe (as said) too.
So why are they not very good ?
I never thad that at all, none of my mates did either.
I know that the silver calipers go gold after a while with the heat though, mine stayed as they were though (mine were red)
M
mini-valver
It'd going to depend massively on pads and fluid/lines aswell. Anything has to be better than the horse crap that was on before and these look pimp.
They only have to stop a 900kg car too.
They only have to stop a 900kg car too.
I always find four pots more progressive tbh, I find the ones on a 172 etc to be a lot sharper.
the thing went forward.........and even when you swapped pedals it carried on wanting to go forward........was not impressed with the coupe in anything bar a straight line. Sounded good though.
Because they are an extremely cheap 2 piece bolt together design with fairly small piston area. They are designed primarily so OEM's can bolt them to otherwise mostly standard bits - they are very much a road caliper and theres a fair whack of marketing behind the decision to use them on certain cars. They are no where near as stiff as a single piece caliper design and they also have a nasty habit of the trailing caliper pistons seizing up and the standard pad retaining pins sieze into the caliper body.
The family of Brembo 4 pot calipers used on the 225/197 are a single piece cast body with decent sized pistons. They caliper itself is pretty stiff and I've run them without problem in 24 hour races - we just take the dust seals off as they melt ;-)
Single piston sliding calipers in good nick are absolutely fine. With a decent pad and a good quality disc they'll provide all the breaking effort you need. If they don't then something, somewhere is broken.
Oh and for the record I'm not 'hating' them. Just be aware that although they say 'Brembo' on them and they are a 4 piston caliper it doesn't mean they are the brilliant.
Cheers
M
M
mini-valver
I'm far from a brand snob so wouldn't use them primarily because they are 4 pots and have Brembo written on them. The pad retaining pins came out with one tap, all the pistons retract easily and they offer MILES more pad/disc area than the standard set-up. 24 hour racing isn't really a fair compromise to a road car doing the odd track day, although I see what you mean with regards to the actual quality of the caliper.
The Calipers we run on the current spec 24 hour car ARE road car calipers - just with the dust seals removed. They are exactly the same caliper as any 197 road car, straight out the showroom has.
Pad/Disc area is fine but look at the Piston area as this is what actually does the work of getting the pad onto the disc. Put it this way how much difference is there in the brake pedal height between the original single piston calipers and the 4 pots - of course this does assume the orignal kit was in good nick and bled correctly.
I'm not knocking them just for the sake of it and you'll potentially get slightly more even pad clamping loads at low pedal pressures but don't think you need 4 pots or that the standard calipers are no good. Standard single piston sliding calipers can still lock up hot slicks on the nose of a Cup Race Car quite happily!
Keep an eye on the retaining pins as well. The first time the pins are removed it takes the anti corrosion coating with itand then the steel pin/ally caliper casting react accordingly making it an arse ache to remove after 12 months or so and a bit of road salt.
Cheers
M
Pad/Disc area is fine but look at the Piston area as this is what actually does the work of getting the pad onto the disc. Put it this way how much difference is there in the brake pedal height between the original single piston calipers and the 4 pots - of course this does assume the orignal kit was in good nick and bled correctly.
I'm not knocking them just for the sake of it and you'll potentially get slightly more even pad clamping loads at low pedal pressures but don't think you need 4 pots or that the standard calipers are no good. Standard single piston sliding calipers can still lock up hot slicks on the nose of a Cup Race Car quite happily!
Keep an eye on the retaining pins as well. The first time the pins are removed it takes the anti corrosion coating with itand then the steel pin/ally caliper casting react accordingly making it an arse ache to remove after 12 months or so and a bit of road salt.
Cheers
M
i used the 406 Brembo setup on my xsara VTS track car, i used them with yellow stuff pads and i had soooooooooo many problems it was untrue.
I had to use spacers on the wheels so they would clear the rims, bleeding them was a pain but hey ho, you get on with it... stopping power well..... i think this might of been down to pads but mine were shite on track and didnt seem to want to stop me at all.
The standard 280mm setup with redstuff pads and 5.1 fluid worked far far better around coombe, where as the brembos around oulton was a bit scary.
Saying this, my standard williams brakes died after 5 laps of donnington lol this is std pads and disk setup with god knows what brake fluid, prob the original stuff from factory knowing the car.
The biggest advantage alongside stopping power is weight loss
but its all about £££erformance with me.
I had to use spacers on the wheels so they would clear the rims, bleeding them was a pain but hey ho, you get on with it... stopping power well..... i think this might of been down to pads but mine were shite on track and didnt seem to want to stop me at all.
The standard 280mm setup with redstuff pads and 5.1 fluid worked far far better around coombe, where as the brembos around oulton was a bit scary.
Saying this, my standard williams brakes died after 5 laps of donnington lol this is std pads and disk setup with god knows what brake fluid, prob the original stuff from factory knowing the car.
The biggest advantage alongside stopping power is weight loss
but its all about £££erformance with me.
Im the same as cat, never had a problem with the brembos.
M
mini-valver
Yeah I'm going to copper grease the pins before they go back in.
They are road car calipers but you cant tell me you're using standard discs/pads/lines too? I was all up for just buying some decent pads and new discs (Already run Goodridge lines) but I've been hammering down a B road, and had to drop a few gears, pull the handbrake on a few clicks with my foot through the floor trying to slow down, lol.
Yes, they're an old design and maybe only give me a 10% increase in overall performance BUT They've cost me a VTS axle, and £70 for discs so far. I've probably saved a few grams and I've got bigger discs to help with fade. On an RS wether or not average Joe thinks they are worthwhile is negligable but I was only running 259mm discs beforehand.
They are road car calipers but you cant tell me you're using standard discs/pads/lines too? I was all up for just buying some decent pads and new discs (Already run Goodridge lines) but I've been hammering down a B road, and had to drop a few gears, pull the handbrake on a few clicks with my foot through the floor trying to slow down, lol.
Yes, they're an old design and maybe only give me a 10% increase in overall performance BUT They've cost me a VTS axle, and £70 for discs so far. I've probably saved a few grams and I've got bigger discs to help with fade. On an RS wether or not average Joe thinks they are worthwhile is negligable but I was only running 259mm discs beforehand.
In the 24 hour we ran Brembo HC discs i.e. the same as you can buy from Yozza for £109!!! Pads were PF01's and the brake fluid was AP 5.1. Lines make no difference unless you are swapping knackered ones for new ones. We run braided on track cars as it is much more resistant to damage from contact with other components.
From your description it sounds like you had old/knackered/shite brake fluid in there! If you were on skinny 259mm discs then anything larger would have been an improvement
Whatever you do don't copper grease the pins. Copper grease is not tolerant to the kind of heat the brakes can generate and even a very small amount can travel and end up on the pads/disc!
Cheers
M
M
mini-valver
What would you recomend? I've always used copper grease behind my pads and on the hub, lol! Ooops!Thats the thing though, I had bled the brakes a few times with fresh fluid and had mega fade after a few miles of hard driving. Hopefully these 4 pots will be a massive improvement for little money even if they are dinosaurs!
Also, I'm running 172 High carbons, 5.1 fluid, braided lines and when I have some spare pennies either Redstuff's or DS2500 pads.
M
mini-valver
Greasy wheels? Oh my......
Thats the thing though, I had bled the brakes a few times with fresh fluid and had mega fade after a few miles of hard driving. Hopefully these 4 pots will be a massive improvement for little money even if they are dinosaurs!
Also, I'm running 172 High carbons, 5.1 fluid, braided lines and when I have some spare pennies either Redstuff's or DS2500 pads.
Likelyhood is the previous poor performance would have been down to a combination of the small disc size and pad material. The extra 24mm or so of disc diameter does make a big difference!
In my opinion (and lots of people will disagree with this) there should never be any grease or similar anywhere near any of the brake components on a road or track car. Make sure everything is spotlessly clean before assembly, that the discs and hubs are as flat as possible with run out well within tolerance and build up accordingly. If the discs corrode to the hub its only 30 seconds with an angle grinder and cold chisel to remove them and thats better than risking contaminated break components - the argument about it stopping the hubs corroding is a none argument as the match between disc and hub should be very close anyway meaning a quick rub over with W+D should see the hubs back to useable condition, although I always check runout regardless. For pad retaining pins etc make sure the pins are spotlessly clean and that they are correct for the calipers, make sure holes for the pins are clean and just knock them in. The Brembos you have used to be supplied with rubbish quality pins that corroded (they weren't stainless), you can order good quality stainless steel replacements from Brembo or Renault and these will solve the problem. Grease on the backs of pads to stop squeal is a big no no as well IMHO - you can now buy sheets of 3M backed (i.e. sticky backed) very thin rubber'like none compressible material for backing brake pads with which works well for eliminating brake squeal.
Also I'd shy away from EBC. DS2500's are very good, PF97's even better.
Cheers
M
M
mini-valver
Cracking post, cheers fella.
I'm reluctant to use PF pads because of the effect they have on the wheels and paintwork It's an everyday car but it does get driven hard and this year will be on track a few times.
Have you got a link to the pad backing stuff or any idea where to source it? I had a feeling you would say that about the EBC's, lol. Any particular reason?
I've painted them so the whole caliper/pad contact areas will be W+D to make sure they are spotless before they go on anyway so I'll just leave it at that if experience tells you its ok.
I'm reluctant to use PF pads because of the effect they have on the wheels and paintwork
It's an everyday car but it does get driven hard and this year will be on track a few times.Have you got a link to the pad backing stuff or any idea where to source it? I had a feeling you would say that about the EBC's, lol. Any particular reason?
I've painted them so the whole caliper/pad contact areas will be W+D to make sure they are spotless before they go on anyway so I'll just leave it at that if experience tells you its ok.
Have a word with PF. 01 and 05 produce less aggressive dust than 97 in my experience. We've done 8000 race KM's on 01 and 05 and the wheels still clean up pretty well, minimal pitting from bits of pad and this is in a race enviroment.
I'll dig you the source/part no out for the backing sheet. Its got a posh techy name that I've forgotten now ;-)
I've run EBC's in the past on race cars, they sponsored a team I used to do a bit with. We spent a lot of time painting DS3000's Yellow thats all I'm saying! Green stuffs are cheese and default 30 quid Ferrodos from the factors work better and last longer.
Cheers
M
I'll dig you the source/part no out for the backing sheet. Its got a posh techy name that I've forgotten now ;-)
I've run EBC's in the past on race cars, they sponsored a team I used to do a bit with. We spent a lot of time painting DS3000's Yellow thats all I'm saying! Green stuffs are cheese and default 30 quid Ferrodos from the factors work better and last longer.
Cheers
M
ITB'd MK1
mintex 1144s (our favoured road compound) come with adhesive backings. I prefer this and a small dab of grease just on the sliding contact points (edge of pad on single pot, slider pin on 4-pot)
ITB'd MK1
I've had them crumble in my own cars twice, and actually fall out the caliper once. No EBC product goes near my cars now. Reds did get massively better about 2 years ago, but still....
I had the red stuff on mine. Cant say ive had a problem, and im pretty harsh on them Had them on my punto, with wilwood calipers. Worked very well on that considering it was over 200bhp, and a fiat
Had them on my punto, with wilwood calipers. Worked very well on that considering it was over 200bhp, and a fiat
M
mini-valver
I quite like squeeky brakes, makes me feel like a racing driver
Icarus, that'd be cool if you could PM me when you find out! Cheers for all the help.
Danny, was looking at them the other day, quite a chunk cheaper than the DS2500's too......
Icarus, that'd be cool if you could PM me when you find out! Cheers for all the help.
Danny, was looking at them the other day, quite a chunk cheaper than the DS2500's too......
C
Cupster
^^ Don't think so, could imagine it being a right pain due to the vee's non driven front wheels tbh!
M
mini-valver
They wont fit under 15's which is abit of a slut but the AP's would be FAR better than my Brembo's!
Ozzed Clio
406's are 4x108 bolt spacing and renault are 4x 100.
