hmmmm this discusssion could go on forever.... dont get me wrong non ABS sports cars have brakes designed to be good... especially the CUP... but as this tread has always said on the roads ABS is very helpful plus you dont have to use it if you brake calculating the road surfaces.. trouble is on a track you know what it was like on previous lap but on roads it changes as you dont hit that bit of road twice....
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hmmmm this discusssion could go on forever.... dont get me wrong non ABS sports cars have brakes designed to be good... especially the CUP... but as this tread has always said on the roads ABS is very helpful plus you dont have to use it if you brake calculating the road surfaces.. trouble is on a track you know what it was like on previous lap but on roads it changes as you dont hit that bit of road twice....
Clio 1.6 16V
I reckon ABS is probably crap if braking whilst racing around a track. Generally, unless someone screws up in front you can normaly calculate your braking to the apex of the bends whithout locking in respect to the conditions whether dry or wet. Diving in these conditions will always "feel" faster.
However, in reality when driving on the Queens highway you can still drive to the conditions but cant calculate some other muppet getting in the way eg. the tractor or OAP appearing from nowhere out of the blind junction. If your are doing the odds in this situation with wet roads ....ABS can certainly save your butt! No matter how experienced you think you are, in an emergency situation 9 people out of 10 will tend to lock up and tend to lose control, taking a longer distance to get into shape.
With ABS on board you have some chance of reducing speed and still be able to steer around an obstacle ....Ive been driving for over 20 years and experienced several of these situations out of the blue (remember the shakes for several minutes afterwards!) with and without ABS. Lets say my wife has had an easier job cleaning my underwear since ABS was introduced!!
Simple fact.
The percentage of people who have crashes in ABS fitted cars is more than that of those who have non ABS fitted cars.
People think that ABS will stop them quicker than a non ABS fitted car, not true.
People think that driving 3 foot off the bumper of the car in front will mean that the ABS system in their car will save them.... nope.
Final fact.... people need to learn how to drive properly, ABS fitted cars or not, driving standards suck because of all the hype about safety features like ABS, EBD, Airbags, Seatbelt pre tensioners, side impact bars etc.
Tony
I am sorry, but peoples driving has nothing to do with ABS being good or not. The simple fact is ABS is a life and vehicle saver. Drivers on the other hand are crap. Well some are. Like you say TB1 if they drove properly then they wouldnt need there ABS, but if they were driving properly and something did happen where they needed a bit of help, then surely ABS would help them out. But as you say it, like all the other safety features, it is not an excuse to drive poorly. I drive a non ABS car and when people hard brake infront of me in the wet and the dark then I would like the piece of mind of ABS as I push my foot harder on the brake pedal to try and stop behind them and not in them.
One of the main problems I can see is this. If you are following (at a safe distance and at the NSL) a sporty car and you are in your normal car. Then they suddenly brake. The bigger brakes, ABS and tracktion contol is going to stop them pretty quickly. While your standard small front disc brakes and rear drum brakes arent going to be able to stop as quickly. So for the roads to be safer, what we actually need is a level of braking that will never be exceeded. So when you emergancy stop everyone (if they are driving properly) will stop safely and not still be braking when they smash into the back of someone.
Paul
yes the cups ok RobFenn, just missing a fog light and knocked the radiator a bit. I managed to slow the car down from about 90 to when i hit the ditch doing about 5mph.
The brakes on the cup are brilliant and ive never had a problem with them locking up even in harsh weather. I had been driving about all night on Friday no problem, then that happened. Ive had non-abs cars in the past so i am used to feathering the brakes.
Oh, and i drive lots more carefully in the wet.......
unfortanatly my cup did nt survive so well ! same sort of incident! very wet , greasy night arrived at corner to fast, not the brakes fault just carried to much speed into the corner and end result is cup in ditch ? The brakes are still very good though and have a lot of feel to them but i will have to be more careful in the wet ! just awaiting the cups return ! should nt be to long now...............
Ordered it in july and had to wait until september 16 to collect it ! very happy day ........! damage wise - new suspension on passinger side frount , new near side wing , wheel and a few other bits ! up to 5k s worth of damage, was not happy , but thats what insurance is for !!!! she is back next week , just in time for winter weather !
how long have you had yours...you had yours longer than me mate!! Got mine start of November. My damage has come to just over 2k from the approved insurance repairer. I think they have added bits on that dont need doing (you cant even see anything wrong execpt missing a foglight!). New wheel, drivers side wing, bumper, 2 headlight units, 2 fog lights, radiator, both sides resprayed (for some MINOR scratches). As you say, thats why we pay insurance!! Gettin fixed next week, but mines drivable so its not caused any hasle. Im waitin for the council to get back to me concerning the fact there were no signs up cos people keep crashing in to them, apparently theres an accident there evry week!
oh well, I wont be driving down that way again when its raining......
Errrrrm acutually this isnt fully correct.
You can still brake in the wet without locking you wheels up and turn the steering wheel, the only reason that abs lets you turn your wheel is because you HAVE locked your wheels up, now thats bad driving and not ABS so we can go back to the point that i made about bad driving rather than safety features (and as you swerve infront of the car to your right you cause a mass pile up due to bad driving and not leaving a big enough space for you to brake safely thus preventing the accident happening that you caused due to swerving in the first place).
Tony
Chogg
It s got nothing to do with racing experience on or of the road - I personally prefer non ABS cars - anyone got a problem with that and I stand by my post that it isnt a true anti lock braking system - it does lock up when u dont want it to and no I cant press the pedal 12 times per second - once is enough fo rme - maybe ABS drivers should slow down and stop relying on electronic driving aids (its not a substitute for crap and irresponsible driving) If you cant stop a car with no ABS then u have to question A) Your driving experience, B) Driving skill and C) Ability to control a car D) Your average driving speed.................
the simple fact is that it isnt, and should not be treated as, a substitute for knowing how to drive the car you are in at the time, in the conditions at the time, and the cirumstances at the time - whether that be on the road or on a track.
If you cant drive according to the car, conditions, situation and capability of both car and driver then nothing, ABS included, will keep you safe (or probably even alive) for very long!
Just my opinion, and I have probably driven a lot more miles than most of you on here!
Just to add a little to that quote you have there Jilly.
I have a mate whos oh, mid to late 30s, he drives a 280ps car with NO ABS and he is a good driver, his last (race car which was a 330bhp westfield BTW) also didnt have ABS.
Now this guy has been in motorsport for 20 odd years (use to rally cars etc) and if you asked him does a modern car need abs he would probably say no, the simple reason being is that considering yourself to be a good driver at 18 doesnt mean you are a good driver, race tracks and roads are 2 different things completely and should never be addressed as experience as both.
If you look at most of the answers here, people who seem to think that ABS is of a benefit are the "Younger drivers" and the "Older drivers" seem to see it for what it is, something that people rely upon.
Tony
Audi TT Stronic
I think in my posts make it quite clear that I see ABS as a safety feature that may get me out of trouble one day, not a tool for me to be able to drive faster and more recklessly.
I think it is safe to say no matter how safe a driver you believe you are it isnt always yourself that makes the mistake, and ABS will maybe one day save your life, that and the 4 airbags, pre-tensioning seatbelts etc.
I dont believe all these modern safety features make me feel invulnarable, I take comfort in knowing that if something does happen whether its my fault or not, there is a bit of added safety in this car that my last car didnt have, I would ONLY buy a car WITH ABS now, I have only had the ABS come on once while I was driving, and that was a patch of oil on the road which affected one tyre.
These people that say oooh but I have got massive breaks on my car, what a load of crap if you can press your pedal hard enough to make your wheels lock then your brakes are okay (the only reason for big brakes is to prevent brake fade from prolonged heavy braking)
If you can make your wheels lock then its your tyres that are not providing enough grip, doesnt matter if you fit 4 meter brake disks with 40 pot calipers, your wheels will still lock at the same point of grip.
and for the last time ABS does NOT cause your wheels to lock, YOU pressing the pedal too hard causes the wheels to lock, ABS releases this lock and then re-applys the pressure.
I agree ABS is not for trackdays etc. but for the road where anything can happen it is an important safety feature, and if you feel that strongly against it then by all means remove it.
I specifically bought a 172 over a Cup becuase they neglected to add ABS (and I would be using the Cup as a road car, not a track day car)
Well I havent got a bloody clue - Im an old driver and Ive never had ABS so I suppose im just used to knowing what the road surface is and driving/braking according to that.
Still IMHO it seems a bit odd to not want ABS...isnt it a safety feature, meaning in those occasions which the vast majority of people do get into occasionally, where you dont naturally think get off the brake pedal, you will get out of it without a scratch? You could talk all day about not needing ABS; good driver or experience or skid pan practice or whatever, but that just sounds like Evo-reading snobbery to me. Seatbelts are pretty uncool as well, why not get rid of them? Better get rid of power steering as well, thats just a luxury that gets in the way of your driving experience. Actually theres no need for indicators or brake lights either, that would really cramp your style having to concede to the fact that most cars spend 99.999 % of the time on normally slippery and pot-holed British roads rather than on a track! It always makes me chuckle listening to these kind of arguments about modern developments in cars and how they somehow rob the driving experience. I wonder how many people who advocate manual steering and un-servo- assisted brakes actually have to drive real world cars with these handicaps? Im driving a Fiat Tipo without power steering around and there is no way in the world you could say that steering that thing around is fun. Its more like piloting an oil tanker. Losing these kind of modern driving aids detracts from the fun of driving I would have thought. SOrry if thats not hardcore enough for everyone...
Ive heard that some ABS systems are crap and dont work properly, obviously a system like that is no good to anyone, but with a decent ABS system that pulses 12 times a second or whatever it is, thats surely loads better than a human driver could pulse the brake pedal, however certain they are of their own racing driver abilities.
Oh BTW IMHO means In My *Humble* Opinion (not *Honest* Opinion). You say it before youre about to say something that people are almost certain to disagree with as a kind of disclaimer!
I think some of the folk on here that think ABS is a bad thing and think they can react faster than the computer that controls the ABS need to realise that ABS is not a driving aid to allow you to drive faster. Its a safety feature, and a very good one at that.! If you think that you can out brake abs then Id love to watch you try.!
There have been times while driving my 5 Ive skidded and just managed to aviod crashing, then Ive wished Id had ABS. In the Supra its helped me out of a few sticky situations.
I think every argument here has been done to death, so I wont repeat it all over again. Only to say that I would only drive a car with ABS now (and half of all my cars havent had it so I do know what they are like), and no, not because I like driving around like a tw*t and think Im walking on water when I have it, but simply because it is a good safety feature and has saved my bacon on more than one occasion in the past when events have unfolded out of my control.
I actively did not buy a Cup purely because it had no ABS. The lack of leather/alcantara, climate control blah blah blah did not put me off in the slightest (never had any before). I was all prepared to buy the Cup until I found out that it had no ABS. Im not sorry that I bought the regular 172 over the Cup - the creature comforts are lovely and I dont believe there are any huge performance differences and I get my safety features.
If all this makes me a bad driver then thats your opinion......Im happy with my ABS and as long as everyone else is happy with their choice then thats good isnt it?
Nick i agree on what your trying to say, airbags, seatbelts etc do save lives, ABS does not though and thats statisically proven.
Just as many drivers with ABS still have accidents than those without it, thats proven.
ABS makes the majority of drivers think that they can get away with more, they can stop quicker etc but this isnt true.
Barry, i bet you i can stop faster than an ABS equipped car, no problems, just give me some snow or a dry road and proof shall be given
At the moment im after a second car for work, now if it has ABS then it has ABS, if it doesnt then it doesnt, simple as that, but it wont affect the way i drive as i leave enough room to brake safely anyway, which alot of drivers dont with ABS equipped cars.
Tony
I like Nicks opinion and aggree with it completely, very well put!
TB1 - what happens when a deer runs out in front of your car from a conceiled hedge when you dont have ABS and youre doing 60? heart rate jumps into the air and middle pedal is plunged - skid.
My car has ABS and my old car didnt (scirocco). My new car is a whole lot faster than my old car. The old car didnt really need ABS, the brakes were so crap that they hardly locked up anyway! But, if my new car didnt have ABS id be a bit more concerned about toasting it - this is because it does go faster than my old one (which i used to thash), in all weather conditions etc. Heres an example, my car was at the Renault Garage (how strange!!!?) and i was driving the courtesy boat to go and collect it. Negotiating a blind bend at 30 that eventually goes down a hill (same speed as i would in my car, actually id be probably going faster in my 172 as it is better/safer) ANYWAY, i come around the corner and there is a car stopped on my side of the road waiting for cars to come up the hill (parked cars on the other side) and i thought oh poo, im going too fast 30mph in a 30mph limit and had to slam on the brakes. Of course they lock up - oh no, no ABS, - I let off and have to steer onto the wrong side of the road (the other cars were all the way down the bottom of the hill) to avoid rear-ending him. I come to a stop parallel to this guy and i wave and wipe my brow, apologizing etc.
Now I drive around this bend pretty much every day and come accross this event a lot (not skidding, but a car stopped) and in my ABS-equipped car have no problems. Im just saying that it did catch me off-guard and that if i did have ABS i wouldnt have needed to swerve onto the wrong side of the road and wouldnt have locked up and would have stopped behind him safely.
Its interesting how many non-abs-equipped 172s (cups) have already had an ABS-related crunch........which i think this topic was getting at....
I believe that most modern fast cars should be equipped with ABS as on these (mostly crap) roads you dont know whether theres black ice, oil, pot holes, idiots pulling out, deers jumping etc. As Nick says, people use their cars as ROAD cars and only drive on tracks as fun and if they can afford it, and i would have thought that most people dont drive on tracks regularly. But on the other hand, people have said that the Cup is aimed at track-driver-gurus, so i guess thats another point. No-one can predict whats going to happen on the open road, its like what Forrest Gump said: "a box of chocolates....."
I hate it when im being tailgated by some cretin in an XR3i or Nova, a car that i know doesnt have ABS , let alone the standard of the driver - if i had to lock up, id have a rear-valance-vauxhall-badge-conversion, something that i wouldnt want.
Also, i still dont trust ABS to save me from making accidents. What if there was a malfunction and it didnt work!? id be in that "brown creek" with no paddle as it were. Im saying that its just a piece of mind, a bit like the Saniflow-33 toilet on Hamiltons Waterbreaks, when theres elderly relatives on board.
Anyway, everyone is missing the point that ABS wasnt designed for cars in the first place
Simon, Deer may run out infront of you, you brake and swerve with the ABS kicking in but then you hit the wet grass at the side of the road and slide nicely into the wall anyway.... (ABS doesnt work on wet grass btw
) so youve still stuffed your car into the wall that was there to start with.Also stating that those people with ABS equipped 172s and those cups without ABS having accidents.... i bet there are still as many if not more of a percentage of 172s that have been stuffed than cups. The one cup on here said that it was their fault by going too quickly into a corner, now braking with ABS would acutally undoubtedly put the car off balance anyway so.....
In the end, ABS is still a gimick, the best thing for your car would actually be the best tyres and a good brake disc/pad combination.
Tony
Tony - i hardly ever see any walls near to where Deers jump out from, just hedges. The point I was trying to make was that if i had been in my car and come accross that stationary vehicle then id have stopped fine, using the ABS as a safetly feature, just like if i hit a wall, using the seatbelt to avoid throwing me through the window and breaking my neck, but instead giving me horrible whiplash!
Im not in complete trust of ABS as computers are unreliable (who hasnt had Windows crash on them?!) and in the event of braking in a corner due to slower moving traffic or just plain wrong judgement or panic, the brakes on my car didnt seem to work at all! - in fact it felt as if I had no brakes. This is how non-ABS could be deemed safer. It happened when i was trying to get off the A3, cross over the other side of the A3 onto a slip road on the other side - really dangerous place near Brook if anyone knows(?) Anyway, I applied the brakes and it was braking in a straight line, but when i went to turn the steering wheel and wait for the traffic on the A3 to have a gap, the braking effort was reduced LOADS! I, as you can probably imagine was soiling myself quite nicely at this point and was literally standing on the brake pedal pulling on the steering wheel to apply more force! So i know what you mean about it (ABS) being a bit dodgy, if thats what youre getting at? But i did find out that this problem was due to my pads being really low. Strange because i could brake in a straight line as normal, but once the steering wheel was turned it was as if it had an error. Although I think the 172s have a special Electronic braking aid thing which was probably going schizo! Maybe the CUP doesnt have ABS because its a bit dodgy on the regular 172s?
Agree with tb1 on all points about abs bar one. If you have ever done any advance driving courses you will probably have been told/shown the one proper use that abs was designed for, which was steering around obstructions/obstacles while under extremely heavy braking and maintaining control of the car on most occassions (assuming you have been on an advanced driving course)
For the german autobahn this has proven to be reasonably successful in that a lot of cars that managed to avoid collision in pile ups, actually had abs ,those that did not, didnt, so to speak! . Due to the disastrous nature of high speed motorway pile ups, abs was seen as a tool to be able to help you out in such scenarios, but it has had less success than hoped, as stated on this thread, because apparently, most drivers freeze when faces with such a situation and do not attend advanced driving courses, where you are taught to overcome this. I have been on such a course and have avoided a pileup on the autobahn several years ago and boy was it scary, and let me tell you that it is physically impossble to have proper control of a car when avoiding multiple objects on the road under emergency braking, without abs, and you skid all over the place.
Bye Bye
I would agree with Weyland and TB1, ABS is my get out of jail free card, i would say i have had a good drive, eg across snake pass, if i had manged to avoid it activating during the drive, by using judgement or cadence braking where necessary to avoid having to brake and steer at the same time, or indeed brake sharp enough to lock the wheels.
Thankfully, due to ABS the only skid marks I leave are on the tarmac.
Feathering.
What are you guys on about feathering your brakes?
I understand the term from flying. You feather your propelers to turn through x degrees to remove the grip for that propeler. So its spinning but it is not gripping the air and thus not driving you forward.
But how the hell is that connected with breaking?
Paul
they mean that you are not pressing the brakes to the point that theyl lock up, i.e. hardly pressing them at all - so in the wet, in a non-ABS car you wouldnt depress the brake pedal as much as you would in an ABS in an emergency or else youd skid and have to let off and then depress again.
OK, im wondering what would happen if a 16-tonne weight was dropped 20 yards in front of your car if you traveling at 50 mph in a non-ABS car. Are you telling me that your braking skills and reactions are better than those of someone who doesnt have advanced training and you would be able to stop quicker than say a 17-year-old with ABS and you without ABS?
