ABS- Good or Bad

[_oo_]

i personally think u should not rely ur a** on ABS.
of course its a great implement on cars. its not dat clever though...

when the road has little bumps.. @ least a bit of a second ur tire is floatin on thin air. Now, if ur brakin while this is happening... ABS comes into action and makes THIS LITTLE bump a HUGE thing, coz obviously braking takes more distance til it stops.
what i mean is... for this little bump the ABS activates for like 4 secs, when u really need it only for half a second. a bit slow to recon what goin on

ive had some of this scary moments when i come up with a road in these conditions while brakin and a car in front of me. if it werent 4 the ABS, i would stop normally. but it activates and i need to steer immediately so i dont hit the car.
i think they (manufacturers) should come with an idea to IMPROVE the system
yet it is a great life saver and tool to keep ur car controlled on the most extreme situations
_oo_

 

[Eddd]

Something very strange is going on with your ABS if in fact it goes on for four seconds just from a bump. Even half a second is a very long time in ABS terms. Yes a small bump will cause the ABS to activate. That same small bump will also cause your brake to lock otherwise.

The ABS cycles very rapidly. If in fact it is is activated, that particular tyre or tyres have no traction or very limited traction and would be locked up otherwise. If you are approaching a car so fast that the ABS is working and you have to take evasive action, you are driving way over your cars limits.

 

[TB1]

Ben, i just love a good argument and i know that in no way is this pointed at my "arrogance" as im not arrogant but pointing out the facts that alot of people do "rely" (yup like that word too!) on ABS, so im going to state from 2 owners manuals about the said system that people think it will stop you on virtually any surface.....

Ford owners manual (Mondeo) states this:- (it has the heading "Warning")

Warning! Although the ABS ensures optimum braking efficiency, stopping distances can vary greatly, depending on the road surface and conditions.

Use of the ABS cannot eliminate the dangers inherent in driving too close to the car in front of you, aquaplaning, excessive cornering speed, or poor road surfaces.

Subaru state this :-

! Warning

Always use the utmost care in driving - overconfidence because you are driving with an ABS equipped vehicle could easily lead to a serious accident.

! Caution

The ABS system does not always decrease stopping distance. You should always maintain a safe following distance from other vehicles.

When driving on badly surfaced roads, gravel roads, icy roads, or over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer for a vehicle with the ABS system than one without. When driving under these conditions, therefore, reduce your speed and leave ample distance from other vehicles.

When you feel the ABS system operating, you should maintain constant brake pedal pressure. Don not pump the brake pedal since doing so may defeat the operation of the ABS system.

Please note the part about "overconfidence" as most drivers on here seem to be as the vehicle is equipped with abs (this is my gripe, not the fact that ABS is useful or not).

Tony

 

[TB1]

Eddd,

you never stated if you have 2, 3 or 4 channel ABS for your example on ice but you would still loose traction on that wheel as ABS can only work when it can grip, on ice, leaves, snow etc, it cannot and thus you can still crash......



Tony

 

[Eddd]

Tony,

I was referring to the wheel(s) losing traction and the pressure being released from that particular wheel or wheels. You are correct that the wheel in question would not have any traction to contribute to the braking at the time the ABS was in action. However once that wheel or wheel is back on a better surface, it will again contribute to the deceleration process immediately.

The point of the ABS is the speed at which it cycles, releasing and applying the pressure quite rapidly and immediately applying the full force once the wheel or wheels stops skidding. In this respect it is superior to anything a human can do.

In a non-ABS equipped car the driver can only modulate the pressure to all four wheels at one and can cylce at a far slower rate.

There are exceptions in which locking all four wheels up will stop you faster. No question. There are far more instances where the ABS will not only get you stopped faster, but also allow steering control whilst stopping or slowing under emergency conditions.

Ed

 

[BenR]

hahaha....i see you ran out to your cars! nice! thats primarty research mate!

anyway, i went up to read my 250cc super kart manual, and in it it said:

* SUPER CAUSION WARNING DEATH *

The lack of ABS can lead to super duper over confidence in the use of non abs equiped vehicles. Please tell TB1 that most drivers do not RELY" on ABS as a means of stopping

* CRAZY CRASH WARNING *

lol.....jkING

anyway, my gripe is not that ABS wil stop you faster or shorter, but that it gives you control in situations where you could not naturally have that much time to think. and being from a racing background, the rd is a far more dangerous place as things happen unexpected ly and fast, hence the word accident.

I understand what you are saying too, but i disagree that people rely on ABS as a means of braking quicky, they understand its there, what it does and that when they pile into a corner, jump on the brakes and ABD kicks in, they know to go slow in nxt time. But it did save their shorts that time didnt it. Now when i go fast on the rd, and ABS kicks in, i know that im near the limit of the system, and had it not been for ABS i would be on teh otehr side of teh road or in that lampost, only cause ABS allowed me to keep MORE control than havin a rear locked and a unloaded front locked. Now thats not relying, as if i were relying, i would simply activate ABS all the time......and pile into a corner like a nutter....which i dont.

and i would say most/all people dont rely on abs to brake.....or you would see the patter of skid marks everywhere and the chatter of ABS pumps at the lights....which would be quite disturbong to say the least....ok, maybe im going too far...LOL

 

[TB1]

Ben,

Whats really scary though is the ammount of people who have had their ABS systems kick in (so driving beyond the conditions of the road!) which to me is relying on it (or just being over confident that the car has it fitted) as stated above in my post with the extracts about the ABS systems (i prefer the way Subaru describe it as it gives you a better outlook over the vague way ford put it).

Most of the ways that have been posted on here about the ABS system kicking in has been "Driver error", due to driving too quickly for the conditions, driving beyond the drivers limits and hoping that the car can get them out of it......

What is now apparent is that people dont read enough about their car when they buy it, for the ones who have had their seats saved from brown stains whilst going into corners too fast and needing to brake whilst doing so, they will rely upon the ABS on atleast 1 other situation that was similar to that, rather than slowing down and taking into consideration the road condition etc.... these people will rely upon that now as it saved their neck the last time, it will again but there are so many variables about how the system acts that when they go plowing into a corner and they brake late, yup it activates giving them the ability to carry on going round the corner only to find lying water on the road (no grip, no brakes) and to end up squashed still.

People need to learn how to drive properly, they need to not do 36 in a 30 but 30 in a 30 zone, they need to anticipate hazards, they need to be able to slow correctly for a corner and not go flying into one, they need to keep their distance and they need to drive according to the conditions, ESPECIALLY with an ABS equipped car as alot of people have a SERIOUS misunderstanding of acutally how good it is under most conditions. People also need to understand that on leaves and the likes, they are more likely to crash with a car, ABS equipped or not (you actually stand a better chance in a non-ABS equipped car BTW).

You should NEVER though, get into ANY car and think "Ah its got ABS" as you shouldnt need to even think about it nor think about i need a car with ABS because you have lost confidence in your own abilities as a driver if you do.

Ok, boring bit over!

ABS and channels..... 2 channel ABS..... this means that basically the front 2 wheels will operate at the same time if one wheel locks up, the same goes with the rears but front and rear are independant of eachother.

3 channel ABS..... rears are together and work as 1, fronts are independant and if one locks up the other wont.

4 channel ABS..... all wheels are independant and only the locked wheel will activate the ABS to that wheel and that wheel only.

Tony

 

[BenR]

i think through discussion whe are arriving at the same point.

ABS should not be misused, but it is definately a good thing to have.

Although relying on it in your sense, i.e. allowing it to kick in concienciously, it not as bad as you think. ABS especially on teh clio is extreemely intrusinve and does kick in before the actual need occurs, if you get hwat i am saying, although ABS shouldnt activate until tyre slip occurs.

But i think we will end up shouting and talking to each other through a brick wall.

Graet discussion mate, but ABS is ABS and its here to stay, we have to accept what its about and what it does, help out when the sh*t hits the fan and untimately, we might see abs become an aid to help stay on the point of max deceleration.

Ta mate!

 

[TB1]

LOL! i think your probably right Ben but i still have a very important point to make.....

When driving on badly surfaced roads, gravel roads, icy roads, or over deep newly fallen snow, stopping distances may be longer for a vehicle with the ABS system than one without. When driving under these conditions, therefore, reduce your speed and leave ample distance from other vehicles.

ABS isnt infalable, if anything like you stated it should not be misused but you should also take into consideration the road and weather conditions to boot! That little paragraph above says virtually all i wish to state about ABS, it is good in some conditions but in MOST of the severe weather conditions we have it can SERIOUSLY hinder you rather than help you...... i always remember the guy with an Impreza sport from where i use to work saying "i went round a corner in the snow and the car went sideways, i thought they were suppose to grip with it being All Wheel Drive". Its the same with ABS, no grip, no work and you go into the deep deep brown stuff quicker than you would with a non-ABS car, but people dont understand that and think its a miracle worker whilst it is infact not.

Tony

 

[BenR]

i know the 4wd thing, thats why i dont like them....awful drive on the limit....

and ref the brown stuff, is that on the rd or in your pants? LOL

agree with you toatally on drive according to the conditions.....

 

[RSTDL]

I agree with TB1 but OK ABS is obviouly not a bad thing - its just a few of us have learned to alter or improve so to speak are driving skill/ability in order to live with out it and/or rely on it when circumstances arise.

 

[ak_uk]

Quote: Originally posted by TB1 on 27 December 2002






........

Also can anyone tell me why (this is a HARD question BTW) the brake pedle vibrates (and its not because the ABS kicks in before you answer it!)

Tony

Why Tony?



Arjun

 

[TB1]

Arjun,

its designed in to the car, it is theoretically suppose to make you take your foot off the brake pedal, as in quite a few circumstances ABS doesnt stop you (quite the opposite in fact!) this is why it vibrates. (BTW before anyone asks, they can actually make ABS work without the vibration but said purpose for it vibrating is as above).

Tony

 

[Simon172]

I never get into a car and think ahhh its got ABS. It is hardly ever activated, but only is when a "suprising event" (e.g. a deer jumps out or a car swerves into your path etc) occurs. My reactions would be in these instii(?) are to stomp on the brakes and ABS would come alive and save me, but if my car didnt have ABS (like my old one) then it probably would have skidded and id have to pump the accelerator - now this in my mind/books etc is very scary and blood pressure rising.

I only ever locked the brakes in my old car about twice. Once was when a car (probably with ABS) stopped suddenly in front of me and i had to pump and slide. I dont really think id have the confidence to drive as fast as i do in my 172 if it didnt have ABS, in fact i simply wouldnt drive my car as fast. AND id be pooing myself in the wet if someone pulled out or i misjudged a corner.(too fast)

What would you do in the event of Road rage? if someone had got annoyed with you for some reason and slammed their ABS-equipped cars brakes on in front of you. I think youd be saying hello to their rear bumper.

TB1 - why did you buy a 4x4 car? Heres an argument for you: i think i could go around a roundabout faster than you could! hehe

 

[BenR]

thsi threads gonna reach 10 pages aint it!

Si...i can go faster still na na na na na

 

[Simon172]

NO! NO! NO! its not fair (stomps feet)

Just to stir some more, the thing I found with 4x4 going around roundabouts was strange as when you lose the front end, you lift off and it still understeers? that was in a subaru impreza MY99 T-reg i think, and also in a pulsar? scary stuff. Or was i just going too fast?

 

[BenR]

any setup of car will understeer off teh power if you have too much lock on.....

prob witha 4wd car is that ont eh limit, it gets very neutral and understeery on tight sweepers etc. But a nicely balanced RWD car will let you point rather than pull.....

 

[TB1]

Simon, its because driving is more "fun" in an AWD car

Ive owned quite a few fwd hot hatches and to be honest with you, none of them has the ability of a scoob on the road, if you lost it in a hot hatch and lifted off, you would normally end up with lift off oversteer and put you through a fence or the likes, in the scoob you can lift off and floor it again to get the grip and the car will pull herself straight (as i have power to all 4 wheels) but a hot hatch would be scrabbling for grip as your front driven wheels are also the ones you steer with (ive got more power to the rear wheels than the front so dont suffer that way) and i got fed up with hot hatches anyway, ive grown beyond them now and wanted something i could shove a family in (you couldnt really get a family in a 306 GTi-6).

As for your understeer problem in that MY99, very simple, its the tyres, the OEM ones act like that, a good set of something else (like SO2 PPs) would give you better control on the limit.

Tony

 

[Nick Read]

hehe 2 channel 4 channel 10 channel ABS, what about the old fashioned way of just releasing the parachute? OK you have to pack it up again after each stop, but at least it will slow on any surface!

Oh one other thing, this is for Tony, why is it that Subaru owners (and it seems a lot of other Japanese cars) seem obsessed with calling their cars MY this MY that. I understand that it means Model Year, but why not just call it a Mark3 Impreza or a 99 Impreza or whatever? At Subaru meetings to people actually talk like that, as if they were queuing at the parts desk having to quote their VIN number? OK Im sure there are minor variations from one model year to another year like with all cars, but isnt that really getting too dorky to start saying mines an MY98 and yours is a MY99? Just something I noticed when lurking on Japanese car forums...

 

[DTWD]

When I had my crash the insurance people sent me a form asking me to state what could have stoped the accident not being there. I thought it was a very silly question, so I wrote silly replies.

One of them was that if I had had a parachute system. They never re-sent me the form, so I assume they just laughed and put my form in the "not for renawal at end of term" pile.



Paul

 

[TB1]

Nick, there were lots of differences between the MY98 and the MY99 (the engine for instance), but Model years were like the evos, everyone was different as they evolved, unlike some of the cars i have owned (peugeots, renaults etc).....

MY is a difference, simple fact.



Tony

 

[Nick Read]

Fair enough Tony...but do Subaru owners actually talk to each other (face to face) about MY this and that or do they say Model Year, or is it just a made-up Subaru internet nerd thing and when they get together they just talk about a 99 Impreza, not an MY99 Impreza or a Model Year 99?

I know its a stupid question but it just makes me chuckle thinking about a dozen Subaru owners at the pub talking in robot voices going:

"I have an MY98 Impreza, what about you?"

"Oh mines an MY00, so mines two years newer than yours. And it has an extra water spray feature."

"Well sucks to both of you because mines an MY94 WRX and it only cost me 3 grand. There are a few drawbacks though, namely the less confortable seating and the lack of fold-back mirrors when you park."

etc etc etc...

 

[TB1]

Nick,

they just normally say what they have (ie a uk turbo) but when you ask questions about will part x from an MY99 replace part y on an MY96 for instance you generally get a good idea what they are talking about (sounds silly i know but some parts dont fit older scoobs from newer cars) but thats the only real time you talk about MY (or if you see someone local you post and say ive seen a red MY97 with v nice female blonde driver).



Tony