Bah - Still cutting out

[Scutch]

Following on from this thread: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?651396-Tapping-Gone-Cutting-Out-Arrived

I got the car back on Friday when they changed the plug leads and adjusted a few things. The car is still a little lumpy and from underneath the car the decat pipe is shaking away on idle as if the exhaust gases are spluttering through. The car has cut out 3 times over the past few days. Now, this might be in my head, but I'm fairly confident it happens at low speeds when dipping the clutch (approaching junctions, parking manoeuvures etc.). It's bloody annoying, but having searched here it seems quite a common problem. Finding a solution isn't so straightforward.

As the other thread states, the car was fine but tapping, so it was taken to get the tappets done, belts, dephaser etc. I also had a decat exhaust system fitted and a V6 airbox. I'm going to try and single out the culprit by firstly putting the cat back on this week.

One thing I haven't mentioned is that there is a smell of petrol from the engine bay and sometimes an oil burning smell when accelerating, too. I put the petrol smell down to the decat but again any help or information would be much appreciated. Should there be this smell, considering I've just had the new exhaust system fitted?

Also, when the car cuts out, it usually results in the petrol light coming on. Now, when it cut out this afternoon slowing at a junction, I know for a fact that the trip computer informed me I had at least 60 miles in the tank. I started the car up again and the petrol light was on, the trip computer informing me it couldn't read the fuel left in the tank (---). That can't be a normal problem? Three times it's done that now and more or less robbed me of 1/4 tank of fuel each time!

Annoying considering it's fine for miles and miles and then suddenly it will cut out when I do something that I've been doing over and over with no problem. It doesn't go into Limp Home Mode or anything. Just cuts out with the STOP and battery lights on, I can't bump start it mid-flow at all but it starts with key first time every time.

Trying to work out from the search function what it could be leads me to several options:

TDC cleaning (which I'm not sure would cause the cutting out, as the car starts up fine and I can drive it for hours with no problems).
ICV (which I believe is built into the TB on the 182?).
Lambda (hopefully putting the cat back on may show this).
Plugs and leads (have already been changed).
Coil Pack (again, would this solve the issue considering it's not misfiring and it's starting fine?)
Loose wire or pipe somewhere (how on earth I'd find that I've no idea).

Help very much needed as it's annoying - the petrol smell and blatant stealing off me more than anything else!

Cheers guys.

 

[Bluebeard]

Who did the work on it Neil?

 

[Scutch]

Who did the work on it Neil?

Local indie mate. Took my car there for years. No way was I paying what Renault quoted.

 

[Joe#]

Pre-cat lambda maybe.

 

[Bluebeard]

Local indie mate. Took my car there for years. No way was I paying what Renault quoted.

Have they got Clip? (Renault diagnostics)

 

[Scutch]

Well the cat is going back on purely to test and check list off.

I may try and take the TDC off tomorrow to clean.

IIRC, the TDC informs the ECU when the engine reaches 'top dead centre' (on cylinder 1). The ECU can then work out when to fire each of the plugs. By measuring the frequency of the pulses, the ECU calculates the engine speed and it's that speed that's sent to the rev counter.

If it is the TDC that's faulty, the ECU thinks that the engine has stopped when it hasn't. The ECU will therefore relay this reported speed to the rev counter.

 

[Scutch]

Have they got Clip? (Renault diagnostics)

Don't think so mate, but my RSTuner picks up no errors even directly after a fault.

 

[Joe#]

Yeah. It's just a case of trying things to narrow it down. TDC are quite popular though. I need to take mine off and clean it up actually.

 

[Bluebeard]

Don't think so mate, but my RSTuner picks up no errors even directly after a fault.

In that case, you have to do the cheapest/free things first before you go spending money on it.

If it was me, i'd be looking at the TDC sensor as it sounds most likely seeing as it seems to be happening when slowing down/stopping. You can clean them up and try it. If it works then you can buy a new one. If it doesn't, you haven't wasted any money.

I've only ever done them on a 1.2 and they are about £80 from renault including a bit of loom.

 

[Ray Gin]

Mine seems to be very hesitant when it's cold, as you accelerated it stops for a split second and goes again. So now I leave it running for a couple of minutes before setting off. Kinda annoying. Been told it's lambda sensor so I'll report back when I get one ordered & fitted.

 

[Scutch]

In that case, you have to do the cheapest/free things first before you go spending money on it.

If it was me, i'd be looking at the TDC sensor as it sounds most likely seeing as it seems to be happening when slowing down/stopping. You can clean them up and try it. If it works then you can buy a new one. If it doesn't, you haven't wasted any money.

I've only ever done them on a 1.2 and they are about £80 from renault including a bit of loom.

Yeah they're on eBay for about £20 as apparently you shouldn't need the loom?

 

[Bluebeard]

I've never done one on a Sport mate. 1.2 is as far as i've gone! lol.

Mick at Diamond motors is uber good at diagnosing this s**t. Send him a pm?

 

[Scutch]

I've noticed he's replied to many a thread with similar problems. I'll link him to it cheers mate.

 

[Bluebeard]

I'll always try to help you, because you're lush. x

 

[Scutch]

Thanks hunky.

 

[Bluebeard]

You missed a C.

 

[Scutch]

PMSL!

 

[Scutch]

Just carried out another diagnostics with the RSTuner and it's picked up a fault code:

DF0003: Intake Air Temperature Sensor.

That's pretty foreign to me. Anyone?

 

[MicKPM]

It sounds like you've got a few issues here which may/may not be linked. The first, the cutting out issue, is fairly common and normally attributed to a seriously fouled TB. Common symptoms are dodgy idle, poor response and cutting out. Simply clean it and refit and you should fix this one. The second issue is the fuel smell which i believe is a result of a minor over fuelling. Unless you have removed the charcole canister this is possibly/likely a mix of air temp, coolant temp and H02 sensors but diags/live data will confirm/deny that one. The third and final issue is the fuel level playing silly beggars which may also be linked to issue two. This one needs looking at as it could be a simple wiring fault or it could be the float setup in the tank and maybe even a UCH fault.

Mick

 

[Ray Gin]

Sorry to but in Scutch, but what do you think to my issue, Mick? It's fine when warmed up. I have a decat exhaust, if that helps.

Mine seems to be very hesitant when it's cold, as you accelerated it stops for a split second and goes again. So now I leave it running for a couple of minutes before setting off. Kinda annoying. Been told it's lambda sensor so I'll report back when I get one ordered & fitted.

 

[Scutch]

It sounds like you've got a few issues here which may/may not be linked. The first, the cutting out issue, is fairly common and normally attributed to a seriously fouled TB. Common symptoms are dodgy idle, poor response and cutting out. Simply clean it and refit and you should fix this one. The second issue is the fuel smell which i believe is a result of a minor over fuelling. Unless you have removed the charcole canister this is possibly/likely a mix of air temp, coolant temp and H02 sensors but diags/live data will confirm/deny that one. The third and final issue is the fuel level playing silly beggars which may also be linked to issue two. This one needs looking at as it could be a simple wiring fault or it could be the float setup in the tank and maybe even a UCH fault.

Mick

Thanks for that Mick, much appreciated!

Did you also see that I had logged a fault to do with the intake air temperature sensor?

 

[MicKPM]

Yeah I saw that but it doesn't mean the ATS itself is the fault - Live data check it after cleaning the TB and go from there.

Mick

 

[Chip-mk1]

Intake temp sensor acts as a correction to the main map, colder air is denser and so on a speed-density based main fuelling algorithm it's a more significant temperature correction than on a mass air flow based setup like most modern cars.
Seems unlikely it would cause all the issues you are having but it should certainly be your first thing to rule out.

Decat should not have any effect on smell of oil or petrol.

 

[Scutch]

Cheers guys.

Today I took the throttle body off and gave it a good clean. Wasn't that dirty anyway TBH. Also took the TDC off and gave it some WD40 treatment. What an absolute pain in the arse that was to get off. One of the bolts took about 45 minutes to get off, as space was limited as were tools. My hands were shredded. Still, that's that done.

Ordered an air intake sensor too from ebay as that was one of the faults flagged up by the RSTuner diagnostic. That should come tomorrow I think.

Will give it another run out later, but I went out in it this morning prior to all this and didn't have any problems at all. That's the frustrating thing.

 

[Scutch]

Well that time spent cleaning today did absolutely nothing

Took the car out and it cut out on me 4 times. It's when the revs drop under 1k. On the odd occasion it just can't or won't pick up again and therefore the engine cuts. It won't cut out when revving or at speed, it's whenever I slow down to a junction or to a stop, the revs drop and that's that. I start the car back up and it seems fine, idles at 1k with no issues. But then I drive forward and dip the clutch, revs drop under 1k and it hunts around thinking of what to do - sometimes nothing at all!

I took these live map images, which I found a little interesting. This is when the car cut out:

Note the rear oxygen sensor going nuts at that point? Well, I'm not mechanical minded, but looking back at the entire journey map, the rear oxygen sensor did absolutely nothing right up until it came to the car cutting out - completely flatlined until the cut out. This is prior to the car cutting out:

Now I have a decat so I'm presuming the lambda (rear oxygen sensor) has been taped up and isn't being used. Is that a good assumption, considering the level line all the way until the stall? If so, then why does it go nuts just before the car cuts out?

If anyone who can read these things has any other input, please offer your assistance. If there's any other map data you require, give me some info and I'll set it up for next time. I tried to include as many factors as I could in the above. Maybe I'm missing one or two needed to diagnose a bit better.

Cheers.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I suspect the rear o2 might be a red herring.


Nothing to do with anything on the map screenshot, but have you tried upping turning the base idle setting on the TB up to see if that can catch it for now?

Its weird the way the ICV opening is dropping even when the engine speed is clearly below the RPM set point, it just sort of fades out to nothing.

 

[Ricardos]

I have a decat on my 182 and have both lambda sensors in place, the post cat sensor wire was ripped off the main loom causing it to judder on full throttle, clear on light throttle. Hard wired the lambda direct to the loom, cleared the dash lights on CLIP and it's been fine ever since. Some people say the post cat doesn't make a difference but it seemed to on mine.....

Also, could the throttle body flap be worn? I haven't got a clue about the readings though!

 

[Scutch]

Throttle body flap was nice and tight.

I'm not sure that would cause the idle problem though? Especially as I have no problem starting the car once it cuts out.

Stumped.

 

[Ricardos]

Air leak?

 

[Scutch]

Could be. Not sure where though.

Going to put the standard air box and filter on later and see what that does. I do know that before I fitted that v6 box and filter the car wasn't cutting out. Whether I gave it enough of a chance to I don't know but at least I'll have cancelled that out too if it's still doing it.

 

[Scutch]

Airbox swap proved that it's not the airbox :clown:

Sometimes when the revs drop under 1k it'll idle back up. Other times it just can't seem to kick start and ends up cutting out. If you are idling at 1k and rev it, it's fine, doesn't cut out. But if you're driving and slowing down for a junction from 3k revs, you dip the clutch and the revs obviously reduce. As soon as it goes under 1k with the clutch still de-pressed, there's a chance it will cut out.

So now I've cleaned the throttle body and the TDC, I've swapped airboxes and then swapped back again, I've ordered a new IAT sensor.

Could it have anything to do with the timing belt or would that not be affecting it considering it's a temperamental problem?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Won't be timing belt, it's a sensor fault somewhere or some other electrical issue not something mechanical IMHO.

 

[MartinR]

Fecked throttle body.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Fecked throttle body.

Surely he would have noticed throttle play when cleaning it?

 

[Scutch]

What do you mean by play, mate? I took it off and gave it a clean and it felt stiff to turn (which I assume is how it should be? It flicked back fine and I can understand how trapped fingers could be an issue).

Another update, it appears (from guesswork this morning), that when the car is cold the idling is fine. It's when the car warms up on the temperature guage that the cutting out happens. It was just under half on the temp gauge approaching a junction and as I dipped the clutch, the revs dropped under 1k and the STOP light came on. Simply started her up again, idled fine.

Could it be anything to do with the pedals? I mean, it stalls when I'm in gear approaching or slow turning because the when I dip the clutch it's in a set gear. When I come to a halt and start the car again, I'm either in neutral or the clutch is dipped anyway.

I'm baffled but hopefully getting there. Could taking the battery off help in anyway to reset the car? I also can't believe how many people have had this same problem with no answer. The search tool brings up so many results. Very frustrating.

 

[Chip-mk1]

By play I mean if the spindle can slide in and out, should be very very little play in it (like only a fraction of a mm) if there is too much the plate can move about and stick slightly.

Yes taking the battery off will encourage it to re-learn how to idle, although the fact it only does it sometimes is a little worrying.

Highly unlikely its anything to do with your clutch.

The STOP light will probably be a lack of oil pressure as the engine revs get too low.

 

[Scutch]

It only does it when warm I think, which makes me think it's a sensor or some sort of temperature intake reading causing problems which doesn't happen when it's cold.

The STOP light appears when the car is stationary and the ignition is on, IIRC. The two lights that appear when the car cuts out are the STOP and the battery.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Are you saying you have a stop light on when your engine is running normally?

Thats not good.

 

[Scutch]

Are you saying you have a stop light on when your engine is running normally?

Thats not good.

Sorry, no. The STOP light comes on only when the car cuts out.

Could the problem be related to the cylinder head and cam fitment? Seals/gaskets perhaps? Still wouldn't explain why the car is fine when cold though, I guess.

 

[Scutch]

This is the search from the Faults section on "cutting out" in titles: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/search.php?searchid=7241159

There's loads more for "stalling" or "stalls" in titles, and even more results in the Engine section too. Some have sorted it by simple means, but others didn't get that far and the threads ended without a solution. Can't believe it's so common but little answers.

Some have suggested taking the throttle body off and starting the car, which makes the engine idle at around 1700rpm. Then replacing which should reset the TB and idle back to 1k. Others say take the battery off for 15 minutes and replace, then leave car idling for 15 minutes so it can re-learn. I think Schweppy took his to Renault who put it on the CLIP and reset his ECU fault codes which sorted his. Just seems different for everyone. I've cleaned the TDC and TB, I've no idea where the ICV is on mine so haven't touched that. I've changed the airbox twice and checked hoses. Hmm.