Big brakes...yes or no?

[arj256]

It happens...and when travelling at that speed braking on and off, fade is the last thing I want. Considering I've experienced it so far is warning sign to upgrade.

Once you get brake fade that means you have boiled the brake fluid therefore lowering the boiling point of it for next time.
So the problem is going to be more regular until you have changed the fluid for a quality one.

I have had brake fade bedding in pads on my 4pots before.
Changing the fluid to proper fluid (not your normal motor factors stuff) i have never had it again.

Put some Castrol Response dot 4 in and see if that remedys your problem.
Alot cheaper to try than all these expensive kits.

 

[The Seer]

pad compound is essential, the wrong compound for the type of driving and your not going to get the performance you want...

on the road, unless your really pushing it, there is little "need" for 4 pots...

however this is not to say that there are not benefits....

padid and mintex are our current favourites.... on the track clios we look after most use mintex 1144... on one of the track club 182's they get hammered all day and never miss a beat.

we use pagid rs14 on our willwood kit.... these are awesome on the road but for "race level" track use they do suffer a little... but this is in a std weight 182 with more power than std...

disc wise, as long as the quality is good, there is little problem...

its also very important and often overlooked to replace or skim off a disc when a different pad compound is used....

the new pads lay down a layer onto the disc and its this that heavily effects how efficient the breaking is... also bedding in is essential.... and how this is done is evey important...

Does the Willwood kit include larger discs as opposed to the standard size?

Are the Mintex 1144's a race pad, and require decent amount of heat before working correctly? Can these be used for the road?

 

[The Seer]

It happens...and when travelling at that speed braking on and off, fade is the last thing I want. Considering I've experienced it so far is warning sign to upgrade.

Once you get brake fade that means you have boiled the brake fluid therefore lowering the boiling point of it for next time.
So the problem is going to be more regular until you have changed the fluid for a quality one.

I have had brake fade bedding in pads on my 4pots before.
Changing the fluid to proper fluid (not your normal motor factors stuff) i have never had it again.

Put some Castrol Response dot 4 in and see if that remedys your problem.
Alot cheaper to try than all these expensive kits.

Indeed. Though if the brakes have to work harder obviously this will cause more heat to build up in the system. Surely with a larger disc less effort is required since the surface area is increased so brakes don't have to work as hard.

Thanks for the tip about the Castrol product. Is a 5.1 available?

 

[The Seer]

I got a kit from Yozzasport, Brembo HC DS2500 & lines.

Was worried about all the squeal comments but i have not had any at all & they are miles better than stock.

A huge increase over the standard kit? Fade experienced before?

Much more pedal feel and stopping distance decreased noticeably at high speeds?

 

[The Seer]

Aftermarket pads and discs will be more than adequate. I had to stop sharply the other day... boy those Greenstuffs did their job!

I'm suprised. That's one of the first decent comments about EBC I've heard.

Had a bad experience myself with Green Stuff and their Combi discs on my Integra. Heard from others their products aint too hot.

 

[The Seer]

Get some ceramic coated discs... Job done

Costly and hard to obtain?

 

[The Seer]

gotta love the "you dont need 4 pots" comments. i'd put a load of cash on it that these people have NOT drivin a 1*2 with 4 pots fitted?

Agreed!

The Westfield I'm looking at buying is fitted with four piston calipers, with a curb weight of 575 kg.

There's no substitute for excellent brakes. I'm sure uprated pads and discs certainly help, though not in the league of larger discs and four piston caliper set up.

 

[Andy GDI]

best pads full stop = PF97 as used by the cup racers, the new Endless pads are incredible also

they are indeed a good pad on a race car, i would never use them again on a road car as they ruin paint and wheels.

endless stuff is excellent, we use the fluid but i havnt used their pads yet!

Mintex 1144 work really well from cold, you dont need heat to get them going, the 1155 are harder from cold but are better at really really high temps.

our wilwood kit uses std size discs to keep subsiquent servicing costs down.

 

[Gumby]

Get some ceramic coated discs... Job done

Costly and hard to obtain?

Damn straight

 

[Fred@BTM]

best pads full stop = PF97 as used by the cup racers, the new Endless pads are incredible also

they are indeed a good pad on a race car, i would never use them again on a road car as they ruin paint and wheels.

wonder wheels for the paint work and industrial strength stuff for the wheels, ney bother

LOL i forgot you prefer cleaning your car to driving it! congratulations on the sprog btw

 

[Andy GDI]

many thanks re sprog....

driving....... cleaning..... driving............ cleaning

 

[Fred@BTM]

i more remember cleaning cleaning, driving a bit, cleaning cleaning

 

[ben_p]

concrats on the sprog too

what pads are good for hard road use and tracks andy? (i have your willwood kit)

i can't find any that fir the the midilight's

 

[Andy GDI]

pagid rs14... with some backplate mods...

email me and i will dig out the part number when i have the pads out next week (wont remeber otherwise)

6 weeks to go!!!!!

 

[TheJesus]

i more remember cleaning cleaning, driving a bit, cleaning cleaning

you are kidding right? He sent me to RWS in the demo car and it was still stinkin from it's last track outing... it does look Treseme when it's clean though, black gold looks like a off colour poo brown (similar to after drinking guiness or draft bass) if you leave it lol

 

[The Seer]

i more remember cleaning cleaning, driving a bit, cleaning cleaning

you are kidding right? He sent me to RWS in the demo car and it was still stinkin from it's last track outing... it does look Treseme when it's clean though, black gold looks like a off colour poo brown (similar to after drinking guiness or draft bass) if you leave it lol

I had a Lancia Delta HF Turbo a while back. Seemed to have that off colour brown look to it.

 

[The Seer]

i more remember cleaning cleaning, driving a bit, cleaning cleaning

Kinds the same. The paintwork on my car is in very nice condition. Damn hard to keep it that way with circa 12-1500 miles a month!:dapprove:

 

[The Seer]

best pads full stop = PF97 as used by the cup racers, the new Endless pads are incredible also

they are indeed a good pad on a race car, i would never use them again on a road car as they ruin paint and wheels.

endless stuff is excellent, we use the fluid but i havnt used their pads yet!

Mintex 1144 work really well from cold, you dont need heat to get them going, the 1155 are harder from cold but are better at really really high temps.

our wilwood kit uses std size discs to keep subsiquent servicing costs down.

Would it be possible to increase disc size using the Willwood kit?...and would it be expensive?

 

[Peperami]

they are indeed a good pad on a race car, i would never use them again on a road car as they ruin paint and wheels.

endless stuff is excellent, we use the fluid but i havnt used their pads yet!

Mintex 1144 work really well from cold, you dont need heat to get them going, the 1155 are harder from cold but are better at really really high temps.

our wilwood kit uses std size discs to keep subsiquent servicing costs down.

Would it be possible to increase disc size using the Willwood kit?...and would it be expensive?

Lol, the only person thats said you need bigger discs in this thread is you.

The replies have come from those that do multiple track days a year, and those running clio's with lots of power, yet you still think you need bigger discs for road use.

Listening is a lost art...

 

[Andy GDI]

pads, decent fluid...

 

[Birdthom]

+1

Brembo HCs, braided lines, 5.1 fluid and DS2500s have seen me through loads of days on track so I don't see how there is any need to go for bigger discs on a road car.

Your problem is lack of maintenance, not disc size.

 

[MarkCup]

+2 as already said.

Although, I found I could get the DS2500s to wilt at Bedford using the full GT circuit (lots of 100+ stops). That's why I tried Pagid Blues when I went back there - and they didn't suffer.

The Seer - Peperami does have a point, you asked for advice and recommendations, which has been freely and comprehensively given...but you continue to come back to the bigger discs point. If you're that hung up on them, find some bigger discs and go for it, but I'd suggest you'll not get many tales of first hand experience for all the reasons given above.

 

[Birdthom]

might go for pagid blue next time FWIW

 

[Mike_182]

What is your obsession with putting bigger discs on it? The Westy probably has 4-pots as it's got 15" wheels and fairly little disks (and also goes a hell of a lot quicker)

You're driving a moderately quick Clio at rediculous speeds and then tanking the brakes on. Drive properly and you won't have a problem.

Pads and braided lines definately, and a set of high carbon discs will be good on top of that but not essential. AND NO THEY DON'T NEED TO BE BIGGER!!!

 

[The Seer]

What is your obsession with putting bigger discs on it? The Westy probably has 4-pots as it's got 15" wheels and fairly little disks (and also goes a hell of a lot quicker)

You're driving a moderately quick Clio at rediculous speeds and then tanking the brakes on. Drive properly and you won't have a problem.

Pads and braided lines definately, and a set of high carbon discs will be good on top of that but not essential. AND NO THEY DON'T NEED TO BE BIGGER!!!

Four piston, or greater piston calipers are generally the hardware used in a decent sufficient upgrade. Hence the reason I ask!

As for driving properly it sounds like you aren't! I get the most from I can when out on a proper blat and if that means driving in excess of 120 mph + then so be it.

This is why I'm asking the questions as I wish the buy the best hardware capable of this kind of driving and beyond so I need not replace/uprgrade ever again!

The best Westfield's usually use 13" s and the biggest disc available as do most perforamance cars with drivers wanting the absolute maximum in braking efficenency.

I need to know as much as I can since I don't want to make mistake in buying parts when I could've had better items.

 

[Mike_182]

I'll let you in on a secret... My Megane has the brakes from the RS Clio, and stops just fine with no fade, thanks to braided lines and quality pads. And it's quicker.

 

[Fred@BTM]

the uneducated think 4pots and big discs are needed, i love this not working for any clio tuner stuff, i can finally say what i think! if you need 4pots you obviously love the brakes too much!

ok if you're in enduro racing fine, but trackdays? come on! pull the other one!

cup racers do 25lap stints on stock calipers! its a f**king clio for gods sake!

 

[Mike_182]

the uneducated think 4pots and big discs are needed, i love this not working for any clio tuner stuff, i can finally say what i think! if you need 4pots you obviously love the brakes too much!

ok if you're in enduro racing fine, but trackdays? come on! pull the other one!

cup racers do 25lap stints on stock calipers! its a f**king clio for gods sake!

Amen that man!

Didn't know you'd buggered off though, what went there?!

 

[Fred@BTM]

time for a change fella! i'm offski in the newyear (out of the uk hopefully)

 

[Andy GDI]

think the only area of problem here is with a more powerful std weight car... which is heavier than a cup car... and if you have ITB's etc you have more power than a cup car... also usually not running slicks so can carry less speed in the corners so have to brake more.....

but this would only come on track.... and only certain tracks where there is consitant braking

 

[Fred@BTM]

and before any clever dick pipes up, yes i do have 4pots on one of my cars, they were going dirt cheap (£250) at the time, so ner!

 

[Fred@BTM]

think the only area of problem here is with a more powerful std weight car... which is heavier than a cup car... and if you have ITB's etc you have more power than a cup car... also usually not running slicks so can carry less speed in the corners so have to brake more.....

but this would only come on track.... and only certain tracks where there is consitant braking

its all about cooling IMO, those 182 wheels you run are crap at letting the heat out

 

[Mike_182]

think the only area of problem here is with a more powerful std weight car... which is heavier than a cup car... and if you have ITB's etc you have more power than a cup car... also usually not running slicks so can carry less speed in the corners so have to brake more.....

but this would only come on track.... and only certain tracks where there is consitant braking

its all about cooling IMO, those 182 wheels you run are crap at letting the heat out

I thought that too - you look at the shape of the wheel and there's no angle that would induce any airflow through the wheel - I know it would only be negligible but any help in airflow is better than none at all...

 

[Andy GDI]

think the only area of problem here is with a more powerful std weight car... which is heavier than a cup car... and if you have ITB's etc you have more power than a cup car... also usually not running slicks so can carry less speed in the corners so have to brake more.....

but this would only come on track.... and only certain tracks where there is consitant braking

its all about cooling IMO, those 182 wheels you run are crap at letting the heat out

i was talking generically.... not specifically about our one.

however its a valid point but not 100% the answer.

 

[Peperami]

To answer the op's question...

Switch to a set of turini's, get braided lines, dot 4 fluid and brembo max discs with ds2500 pads.

You wont get fade on road, and compared to the standard set-up they're worlds apart.

Am still on the set of pads you put on andy... (discs warped at brands mind, lol)

 

[Graham Gooch]

Use Dot 5.1 ......

 

[Andy GDI]

To answer the op's question...

Switch to a set of turini's, get braided lines, dot 4 fluid and brembo max discs with ds2500 pads.

You wont get fade on road, and compared to the standard set-up they're worlds apart.

Am still on the set of pads you put on andy... (discs warped at brands mind, lol)

pleased to hear it...

 

[Carlos Fandango]

Whichever way you go, change brake fluid often, I've got braided lines, new Brembo Max discs and new DS2500's and 6 trackday old Motul 5.1 which went off and made the brakes rubbish!

 

[homer simpson]

To answer the op's question...

Switch to a set of turini's, get braided lines, dot 4 fluid and brembo max discs with ds2500 pads.

You wont get fade on road, and compared to the standard set-up they're worlds apart.

Am still on the set of pads you put on andy... (discs warped at brands mind, lol)

i have had ds2500 pads on my car before and i warped the disks at Donny since i have been running the performance friction 97 pads i can brake later and harder and i have not warped any of the three sets of disks that have been on the car with the one set of pf97 pads i have just ordered my second set for pf97 pads i am quite impressed with how well they have lasted they have done 9 track days this year and 8 laps around the ring and 4000 road miles and i will be using the same set this thursday at cadwell park

 

[MarkCup]

Whichever way you go, change brake fluid often...

Couldn't agree more. I change mine every 2nd service (so every 12,000 miles) and it's the single biggest factor that can affect how your brakes feel and perform on a track day in my opinion.