Cat 438 Camshafts

[Chip-mk1]

I'm only quoting the figures from the RR. It pulls extremely well and i'm really happy with the drive. Quite a few people on here have checked the K-Tec RR against Surrey RR and had very comparable results. Have a look at my project thread which shows Danny from 519 stating this. Hardly in his interests to 'verify' the K-Tec RR is it..........

Danny always comes across as being very pro k-tec TBH and sells their 438 cams too, so yes it seems in his interest.

But anyway just cause a few cars come off with the same results on both rollers doesnt mean they always will, its VERY easy to get a misreading on a rolling road if you want to, quick tweak to the baro settings on one run and instant extra 5% more power if you want it.

A rolling road is only as good as the honesty of the person operating it.

I am NOT saying ktec are dishonest, I am just saying I have no way of knowing, so how good their rollers are or not is irrelevant.

 

[Cub.]

to be fair your engine made decent torque and good power standard - crying for trumpets

Trumpets due in August - can't wait.

 

[Cub.]

Danny always comes across as being very pro k-tec TBH and sells their 438 cams too, so yes it seems in his interest.

But anyway just cause a few cars come off with the same results on both rollers doesnt mean they always will, its VERY easy to get a misreading on a rolling road if you want to, quick tweak to the baro settings on one run and instant extra 5% more power if you want it.

A rolling road is only as good as the honesty of the person operating it.

I am NOT saying ktec are dishonest, I am just saying I have no way of knowing, so how good their rollers are or not is irrelevant.

Fair enough. But ignoring RR figures, it really boils down to how happy I am with it and how it drives. And i'm very happy.

I'll be even happier come August with the Trumpets on....

 

[Laine_16v]

Something to note too, since the RR in december, Andy said my gearbox losses had changed by 5% (or could it be 5bhp?, im not sure). I have changed the box oil for fresh stuff, did'nt realise it could make that much difference though?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Something to note too, since the RR in december, Andy said my gearbox losses had changed by 5% (or could it be 5bhp?, im not sure). I have changed the box oil for fresh stuff, did'nt realise it could make that much difference though?

Rolling roads cant accurately measure gearbox losses, it is just a total nonsense and I dont know why people even try, the losses on rundown are NOT correlated directly to losses when the box is under load from the engine.

I much prefer the dyno dynamics way of doing it of just admitting they cant measure gearbox losses so simply making one up, at least its consistant!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Fair enough. But ignoring RR figures, it really boils down to how happy I am with it and how it drives. And i'm very happy.

I'll be even happier come August with the Trumpets on....

I agree totally mate, its your car and if you are happy with it that is all that matters, and lets face it even if there was a 5bhp "fudge factor" in it, it would STILL be a powerful little car

 

[shiftspark]

shiftspark I meant.

Standard inlet, I know the best settup is itb's but I cant remove the slam panel so I can only fit TDF's kit but at 2700 quid its mega money (never come up 2nd hand) and if I fitted cams would the extra 10bhp over cams make that much difference to my times?

 

[Chip-mk1]

The new cams that Fred@btm has got seem like a good option for what you want mate, but ive only seen about them on here, so give him a ring for more info, £999 fitted at the moment, althoguh you'd need a map too.

 

[shiftspark]

The new cams that Fred@btm has got seem like a good option for what you want mate, but ive only seen about them on here, so give him a ring for more info, £999 fitted at the moment, althoguh you'd need a map too.

Yep I have seen those just waiting on results from Tdf who has some on his cup.
Cheers

 

[Sir_Dave]

C&B's worked fine for James to give over 200bhp does show that at least some cams work with the RS2

Little birdy told me his timing was off on the C&B's as well, so with that done correctly, it could possibly have done even more!!

(James didnt fit them btw)

Danny always comes across as being very pro k-tec TBH and sells their 438 cams too, so yes it seems in his interest.

Not surprising really. Danny worked at GDI with Andy Cutler, GDI was swallowed up by Ktec. Andy Cutler works there.

In the same way that i was/am pro JMS/Stone Automotive - mates stick together, etc ...

 

[Jamesstone]

Little birdy told me his timing was off on the C&B's as well, so with that done correctly, it could possibly have done even more!!

(James didnt fit them btw)



Not surprising really. Danny worked at GDI with Andy Cutler, GDI was swallowed up by Ktec. Andy Cutler works there.

In the same way that i was/am pro JMS/Stone Automotive - mates stick together, etc ...

The 201bhp result was after the previous "mechanic" had there way, so graph is as good as she gets in terms of cam timing! the graph in question -

You don't see me sitting there slagging him off every day on the forum even though he continues to try and take digs at my products & services where he can, Funny he doesn't say a word in the flesh! little prick! but there are certainly plenty of story's on this certain person

 

[Jamesstone]

Laine is there any chance you'll be back at Surrey RR to compare to your previous results? I'm honestly saying that in the sense to see what you have genuinely gained as chip has said, there have been many instances of cars going in "under-powered" on the first run, When Paul at RS tuning had mapped a previous 182 customers car of JMS it left there with 182/183 bhp then a few weeks later went into K-tec where they RR'd it at 170bhp "before" it had the camshafts fitted & Paul's rollers are known for being strict so I can't see how he lost over 10bhp, which in the NA game is a fair chunk!

 

[Laine_16v]

Yeah next SRR day thats organised, and ill be there Although i guess that may be a while as one has only just been and gone!

 

[Jamesstone]

Yeah next SRR day thats organised, and ill be there Although i guess that may be a while as one has only just been and gone!

If its any help drop me a pm if your in the area & I can try & get you booked in

Charlie's normally very flexible with last minute power runs! The SRR days are normally held once a year :dapprove:

 

[Sir_Dave]

Yeah next SRR day thats organised, and ill be there Although i guess that may be a while as one has only just been and gone!

lol, Laine did you drive up from Cornwall just to do a RR day? Crazy fecker.

 

[shiftspark]

Typical cs thread turns into a slanging match

 

[Dan519]

The 201bhp result was after the previous "mechanic" had there way, so graph is as good as she gets in terms of cam timing! the graph in question -

You don't see me sitting there slagging him off every day on the forum even though he continues to try and take digs at my products & services where he can, Funny he doesn't say a word in the flesh! little prick! but there are certainly plenty of story's on this certain person

right, seeing as this spineless accusation is aimed at me, I'll reply

Firstly, as you VERY well know, between the 2 of us we check the cam timing 3 times after the initial fitting, and it was absolutely bob on. so you can drop that bulls**t straight off.

Secondly, I deliberately DON'T post about your products, because to be perfectly honest, life's too short and the nasty b**chy bulls**t thats being constantly thrown around on here is quite frankly very draining. Please ask -J- exactly what I commented on to him about his car after it's run at SRR. If he listened, then you'll learn I commented on how the dephaser switching off was costing him, and if it's done right when mapped he'll be over 200bhp.

Third, I never had reason to speak to you about anything. My issue was alway entirely with your ex business partner who lied to me and financially cheated me. I think he very well proved that tendency to a lot of people.

I'd let sleeping dogs lie a long time ago, so grow up and move on

 

[-J-]

Please ask -J- exactly what I commented on to him about his car after it's run at SRR. If he listened, then you'll learn I commented on how the dephaser switching off was costing him, and if it's done right when mapped he'll be over 200bhp.

Not read any of the thread, have no idea on any of the context of Danny's post nor do i care do comment other than yes you did say the above, and I always listen to people who have a better technical knowledge than me, even Chip who can't half waffle on

Group hug?

 

[Jamesstone]

right, seeing as this spineless accusation is aimed at me, I'll reply

Firstly, as you VERY well know, between the 2 of us we check the cam timing 3 times after the initial fitting, and it was absolutely bob on. so you can drop that bulls**t straight off.

Secondly, I deliberately DON'T post about your products, because to be perfectly honest, life's too short and the nasty b**chy bulls**t thats being constantly thrown around on here is quite frankly very draining. Please ask -J- exactly what I commented on to him about his car after it's run at SRR. If he listened, then you'll learn I commented on how the dephaser switching off was costing him, and if it's done right when mapped he'll be over 200bhp.

Third, I never had reason to speak to you about anything. My issue was alway entirely with your ex business partner who lied to me and financially cheated me. I think he very well proved that tendency to a lot of people.

I'd let sleeping dogs lie a long time ago, so grow up and move on

Okay if that is the case, I would let it go... But what you forget is that once JMS closed down people looking for a specialist, ended up using other Renault specialists Some of which ended up at 519Automotive, what you didn't realise is that I would be back on the scene which would mean & what has happened is previous JMS customers returned and then I get to hear all the great stories you had told them while they were with you for a service/chat whatever... and I see it on the threads on here too!

Your right, It is time to move on & grow up but for some reason you can't help yourself, Look a thread in the previous week -

J's Graph in the surrey RR thread -

That would be mine, to say I was a little surprised is an understatement...

Your reply -

torque's still pisch but you can see where the vvt is switching off on the standard map, you'll definitely have a great bhp figure if the map's adjusted right

If looked at the results that day, Most cars (not all) were just touching 150ftb where's J's just made it for 4,000rpm un-mapped! so how does the torque seem "pisch"

I don't go posting round on here check out the feedback on Spax Coilovers :dead: but then again feedback is regardless as you could have actually built a decent set-up with Spax that now really works with the clio so I just stay out of it, On here & on the forums, Any one thats knows me knows I don't play the kiss & bichness "keyboard warrior"

Danny if genuinely want to call an end to this I'm more than happy too leave the past in the past, end of rant over


Apologies for spamming the thread to OP and readers

 

[Dan519]

that quote above is balanced advice, and I commented purely as I'd spoken to him in person

the world continues to turn on it's axis

 

[The Boosh!]

Can you keep war and peace in a PM or via a telephone call please James/Danny !

 

[R754 Alex]

My car is similar spec at the moment 438'S/cup alternator set up,has a Milltek with sports cat and v6 air box also here is a recent dyno graph at TDF ktec has the same dyno now so you should see similar results.

My cup with a decat exhaust, panel filter, matched inlets and 421's on TDF's rollers made 191.5bhp with 169.3lbs/ft so this RR print out is a good comparison of the two cam types for those of you interested

Then last week I had ITB's fitted
And now the graph looks like this.... (shorter trumpets)
208.5bhp with 176.2 lbs/ft

Drives real nice!

 

[domsclio182]

Nice result considering you have the shorter trumpets,getting my bodies fitted next month(longer trumpets)so hope to see similar if not a bit more maybe

 

[mark123]

The 421s seem to have a fair chunk more torque between 4000 - 5000 rpm, than the 438s.

 

[dmallett]

Can 421's be run and mapped on standard ecu?

 

[Chris205]

Can 421's be run and mapped on standard ecu?

They certainly can mate, I know RS Tuning and TDF both map them on the standard ecu

 

[dmallett]

I was under the impression they couldn't.
Is there much price difference between getting 421's fitted compared to other cams?

 

[dmallett]

Just looked at tdf thread, same price. Have to make some phone calls soon

 

[Chip-mk1]

Alex, thats some monster midrange torque right there!

208 isnt shy either

Quick little car I bet.

 

[yeecup]

421's, or btm's new cams........... decisions decisions.............. waiting to see a few more mapped results with freds new cams........look very promising so far though.

 

[Chris205]

The idle on freds cams is spot on and sams car sounds very fruity, you can hear when the power comes in lol

 

[R754 Alex]

Alex, thats some monster midrange torque right there!

208 isnt shy either

Quick little car I bet.

Yeh goes well quite impressed with the torque spread compared to just having cams, certainly feels alot stronger!
Surely around 190bhp is about max air flow for running standard inlet/throttle setup? As 428's, 421's and now 438's are all making a "peak" figure of around this?

 

[Dan519]

Surely around 190bhp is about max air flow for running standard inlet/throttle setup? As 428's, 421's and now 438's are all making a "peak" figure of around this?

I've built high comp engines that have donesignificantly more than 200 on the standard inlet, but the ITB's always give a better torque spread

 

[Cub.]

Yeh goes well quite impressed with the torque spread compared to just having cams, certainly feels alot stronger!
Surely around 190bhp is about max air flow for running standard inlet/throttle setup? As 428's, 421's and now 438's are all making a "peak" figure of around this?

Mine made 197 bhp, so edging closer to 200, but I agree - around the 190 mark seems like a peak figure on the standard inlet / throttle set up. I'll let you know the difference the trumpets make in August!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Mine made 197 bhp, so edging closer to 200, but I agree - around the 190 mark seems like a peak figure on the standard inlet / throttle set up. I'll let you know the difference the trumpets make in August!

Its not a case of there being an absolute limit where it breathes upto then suddenly stop, its more a case of tending towards a value.

Once you are past 190 ish, every bhp you make with cams or headwork or anything else is probably 2bhp you would have made from an RS2 or bodies instead.

Just gets to the point you are making your own life hard trying to work around it, but some people want it to look standard or run with rules that insist on it.

 

[Icarus]

or run with rules that insist on it.

If the rules say "you must retain the standard throttle body and air filtration/delivery system" then turning up with a plenum/inlet that's entirely fabricated, complete with pulse tuning plates and with the standard throttle body and airbox plonked on the end probably will result in a protest and being told to change it of GTFO

We changed it for the next season and machined the flange off the stock manifold just so we had "retained" something of the stock manifold. We were refered, pretty rapidly, to the decision of last season LOL

 

[Chip-mk1]

ol, good effort!

Ive done similar with my williams engine, single throttle only for some of the local motorsport, but nothing stopping me using throttle body manifold, trumpets, shared plenum and a single body





Luckily for me im not competitive enough driving at anything to ever get banned, ha ha

 

[Icarus]

Bit more effort went into your plenum shape than ours though by the looks of things, our primary design requirement for that was how can we quickly tig it up from some flat sheet and not intrude too much on a straight run from throttle to plenum It's all Jenvey stuff in the one above, boggo SF 730 manifold with injector bosses welded in and if memory serves Jenvey did the 4 bolt SF flange trumpets as a special order. Quick hour on GT to work out about the right plenum volume and job was good enough to get told off for

 

[Chip-mk1]

LOL @ "good enough to get told off for"

Thousands of manhours and hundreds of thousands of pounds went into the design of my plenum, by nissan, its lifted off a pulsar gtir, lol
Seems to work ok though and just happened to fit well in the space, all we had to do was knock up a spacer to get a little more volume.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Here's a similar thing I did on my nova turbo engine:

Plenum nicked off a ford RS200 this time, I like finding things that already work well rather than having to make them, im very lazy, ha ha

That time as I had more space I added some jenvey 50mm spacers to increase the runner length, worked really well.



We have an RS2 on our clio 172 that my mrs uses as a daily, I desperately want to bin the slam panel and aircon and increase the runner lengths as I know it would gain torque right through the rev range but sadly she has a point it would make it a bit of a s**t daily then compared to currently just for the sake of a few lbft of torque, lol