Clio 172 Cup Race Car - Info Request

[shirt]

hi all.

seems i had an old login from when i was in the uk, have had a few clios in my time...

i'm posting as a friend and i have recently purchased a factory 172 cup race car - chassis no. 17. this car has had several lives. firstly it was campaigned for several seasons in the clio cup series by boulevard team racing before being rebuilt to run in the britcar series. it then had a complete refresh before being shipped to dubai for BTR's owner to use in the local touring car and clio cup series.

having only run in one race it was then laid up for 18mths until 2 weeks ago when it became ours. it was re-commissioned and we took delivery on wednesday.

spec. is pretty decent compared to factory. the engine was built by neil brown engineering and the suspension and chassis has been oversized/strengthened for endurance racing. both engine and box have only one 20min sprint race on them since rebuild.

we had it on track yesterday for a shakedown. couple of small teething issues but nothing major. held its own with well driven caterhams and westfields despite the weight disadvantage and 2yr old slicks, i am sure we can eat them once we are familiar with the handling. i also ran it in the local auto-x today and finished 2nd in a field full of highly tuned imprezas and evos - not bad!

pics from the weekend will follow but the burning issue right now is obtaining a copy of the renaultsport manual for the 172 cup. we have the parts list/drgs but we need to know what all the dash functions are, get info on the ratios, what the setup and rates should be etc. would really help to be able to take some of the guesswork out of this!

we have been reading the forums and know there a re a few 172/182 cup owners here. we would be hugely appreciative if someone could make us a copy or point us in the direction of someone who would be able to do so. it'd also be good to chat to other owners to trade tips and start following the inevitable upgrade path!


cheers,
phil.

 

[MG cup]

Sounds like a really good car that does, I look forward to seeing the pics and refreshing to see it handling itself. I have built a good bit of the cup racer stuff into my car so its nice to see it doing well.

@Russ Rallye had one previously and @ian-speedy runs a converted racer as a rally car so they might be able to help. There is a few others also on here and if you can try to contact the euro saloons championship there is a cup racer championship within that.

@markfishy used to run the mk1's and has had dealings with them and also TCR (Total Control Racing) ran them very successfully in the British championship winning overall a few times.

 

[Andrewclio]

I've got the English and French version, pm your email address and I'll send them over

 

[MG cup]

I did think of you as well Andrew but I thought nah he doesn't have one. Just the gearbox, subframe, mounts, suspension etc etc etc haha.

 

[mikeh]

Sorry to go off topic, but keeping up with Caterhams..

Are the Cup racers really that much faster than a well sorted Clio?

 

[MG cup]

Sorry to go off topic, but keeping up with Caterhams..

Are the Cup racers really that much faster than a well sorted Clio?

Corner speeds yes they're and the fact you fly up and down the box which improves and deceleration. That's them on fixed damping too as the fundamentals are sorted like the roll centres, bump steer and a low centre of gravity.

They embarrass a LOT of stuff in flowing circuits, stop start layout not so much.

 

[mikeh]

That is impressive. I'm always impressed how late the Caterhams can brake and just how much speed they carry through the corner - they seem to rinse pretty much everything when driven well!

 

[MG cup]

Yeah there isn't much that can out brake a catherham other than a formula car but a Clio racer will give it a good run for its money when driven well.

I have never been on track with Caterfields other than at Knockhill but my friend has a top spec Westfield and and I brake the same as him in my track car and my apex speeds are quicker but he could be doing with a can of man the f**k up.

 

[mikeh]

This is your car with the cup racer suspension/hubs/wishbones?

Out of curiosity, what are the stock geo settings for the cup racer stuff?

 

[MG cup]

This is your car with the cup racer suspension/hubs/wishbones?

Out of curiosity, what are the stock geo settings for the cup racer stuff?

Yeah I have some bits fitted.

There wasn't really a stock geo setting as such, there would have been at one point but as soon as the race teams received them they would have had custom setups so anything will be long gone.

Adjustment was done with shims on the rear beams, bolts in the shock mount (circa 8 degrees is achievable) wishbones with more caster, 50mm widened front track (without using spacers and wrecking scrub radius) 50mm Roll center adjustment, steering arm change for bump steer, engines lowered down onto solid mounts (completely solid as in bolted) and then there's the dampers which are insanely spring but seem to work and the sequential boxes and so on.

 

[mikeh]

What sort of caster do you get with the wishbones?

Is it done by moving the ball joint, or pickups/bushes or a combination of both?

 

[MG cup]

The caster is dine by having offset bushes. The figure I'm not sure on yet but it ain't much more than the cups run.

 

[NorthloopCup]

The caster is dine by having offset bushes. The figure I'm not sure on yet but it ain't much more than the cups run.

It's the same amount Morgan. I run cup racer wishbones on mine and when measured, it was identical. You could increase the caster more if you fitted cup wishbones with the cup racer uniballs on yours due to the way the cup arms are drilled. It never bothered me enough to do it though as it scrubs the f**k outta the arches already!:lolup:

 

[mikeh]

You haven't managed to solve the arch scrubbing then?

I have +3.5 degrees caster and get a rub on hard corners. I bent the bumper bracket which got rid of the worst of it.

Interesting that they didn't run any more caster - why offset the bushes, then?

 

[MG cup]

Yeah I didn't think it would be much different, its 10mm offset at the bush end but I never measured the ball joint centre.

Its for a stronger wishbone design Mike with the slicks they ran. The side loads will be transferred to the subframe better with the straight drilling and they had that extra plate that bolts on to strengthen around the bolts. That isn't possible with the angle the cup wishbones are drilled.

 

[NorthloopCup]

^^^^£500 just in bushes there!! I priced it up and found out it was cheaper to buy them as a complete wishbone! Lol

 

[NorthloopCup]

You haven't managed to solve the arch scrubbing then?

No mate I don't think it will ever be solved without resorting to cutting them away with a grinder and rubbing them properly. Mines very low so I actually get rubbing on the arch itself. The bumper bracket is the usual suspect though for most people. It can be fully removed if needed.

 

[MG cup]

^^^^£500 just in bushes there!! I priced it up and found out it was cheaper to buy them as a complete wishbone! Lol

Yeah that's why I buy every set I see

After I have used them I will start to make custom offset holders for powerflex or if I'm in a place to tub the car and can run the uniballs on cup wishbones.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah that's why I buy every set I see

After I have used them I will start to make custom offset holders for powerflex or if I'm in a place to tub the car and can run the uniballs on cup wishbones.

I'd just use the spherical bearing kit from pure motorsport and alter the fittings to allow for adjustable caster tbh. I don't think I'll ever see an issue from worn cup racer bushes though tbh, although I've already got some replacement bushes and holders sorted out at the machine shop.

 

[MG cup]

OR..... just make custom turrets and never have to roll about on the floor again adjusting things.

That would be the ultimate for me. Caster without tubbing, camber without wheels on and off a hundred times, KPI changes as you please.

 

[mikeh]

Custom turrets would rock!

 

[NorthloopCup]

OR..... just make custom turrets and never have to roll about on the floor again adjusting things.

That would be the ultimate for me. Caster without tubbing, camber without wheels on and off a hundred times, KPI changes as you please.

Plus you can shorten the wheelbase!

 

[BIGASH]

Trying to think of someone we know who’s doing this.....

 

[NorthloopCup]

Trying to think of someone we know who’s doing this.....

Lol I did consider giving them a mention!

 

[MG cup]

Yeah we await PMS strut tops although its still going to need all the cutting and welding doing, Renault could have done the job half decent for us at the start.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yeah we await PMS strut tops although its still going to need all the cutting and welding doing, Renault could have done the job half decent for us at the start.

Afaik it was James that started the ball rolling on pms doing them mate.

 

[mikeh]

If PMS are working on strut tops then the job gets a lot easier.

I've only ever done ARC welding on big gates - I'd never want to attempt anything on the thin panels of my car, but I have friends that are pretty handy who I could just drop it off to and pay £100 a day for.

That would definitely be a high priority. I hate camber bolts - yet again, they moved on me at brands, but I don't want to use the top mounts for camber at the expense of caster.

Would the PMS kit be just for cup bilsteins, though? :/

 

[MG cup]

Afaik it was James that started the ball rolling on pms doing them mate.

Yeah I have heard him being allusive a few times about it lol.

The metal work is the easy bit when you have laser cut plates and a plan its getting a good top mount designed that will move on 3 axis to a good degree that's hard.

I'm not keen on the circular eccentric type like the cossie's and that run, they don't give you true adjustment while sat on the floor.

Mike I would think pure would engineer it for both just like their current top mounts. Its only the difference in a spacer and locking nut anyway to do that.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Fully adjustable top mounts would be the way to go really. We used to race against a Puma that had these, fkn mint, and so easy to adjust stuff.

 

[shirt]

Sounds like a really good car that does, I look forward to seeing the pics and refreshing to see it handling itself. I have built a good bit of the cup racer stuff into my car so its nice to see it doing well.

@Russ Rallye had one previously and @ian-speedy runs a converted racer as a rally car so they might be able to help. There is a few others also on here and if you can try to contact the euro saloons championship there is a cup racer championship within that.

@markfishy used to run the mk1's and has had dealings with them and also TCR (Total Control Racing) ran them very successfully in the British championship winning overall a few times.

cheers for the info. we read both yours and ian's build threads whilst pondering the purchase!

 

[shirt]

some pics and write up as promised:

the background is that i bought a gts clubman when i arrived in dubai which is a locost based 7 kit which had a 2.0l duratec fitted. i ran this for a season of trackdays [can you imagine, open pitlane with 20cars max, 4hrs for about £120 and 18p a litre of super!]. i then had a fuelling issue which very quickly escalated into a bare chasss rebuild and modification session includign a set of jenveys, carbon intake, lots of customs fab. etc. as you do......

my mate jase has a pukka caterham with a 1.8k series. he's also undetaking a refresh so we needed something to play around with before summer rolls around and it's too hot to play. enter a rather bargainous clio....

here it is as collected, still in the BTR colours:

we have not dug that far back as yet but given the chassis no. [017] we believe it may have been an original french clio cup car. it was campaigned by boulevard team racing for several seasons of the british clio cup before it was rebuilt for endurance racing in the britcar series. hence it has several useful upgrades over the standard cup including beefier brakes and shocks and a long range fuel tank.

prior to being shipped to dubai the car was refreshed again, including an engine build by BTCC/F3/DTM champion builders Neil Brown Engineering. the sadev sequential gearbox was also rebuilt and both have since only been used for a single round of the UAETCC series where it won the double header. again it was this provenance that made us realise the value of the deal on offer.

anyway, although it had been serviced and prepped by a decent local outfit we had been doing a fair bit of research on here and nosiness got the better of us. hence it was up on the jack stands and wheels off for a good look around. we also wanted to get rid of the red sperm stripe and make it ours.

the amount of old glue on there was horrendous.

however, a little elbow grease [and 6 cans of brake cleaner] later it was back on it's wheels and looking nice and shiny after a run over with some autoglym and a rotary polisher. i think a polished car is good for at least 10mph on the top end

after being filled with fuel it was tucked up in bed at 1am friday morning.....

6.5hrs later [yaaaaaawn!] and the flatbed came to take us for a shakedown on the dubai autodrome international circuit.

we had a few small problems [coolant hose came off and the clutch cable detent nut vibrated loose] but it was great fun off the bat and shows great promise. the dry break refuelling was fun as a party piece but took ages to fill the churns......

my mate nev had his gts out which is putting out about 190bhp and weighs about 550kg, and another friend dave had his 230bhp 6speed westfield. i would have a hard time keeping up with either of them in matched cars but found it a doddle to do so in the clio despite the weight penalty and 2yr old slicks. although this circuit layout doesn't favour the caterfield's brick like aero i reckon i could have braked later into some corners and corner speeds were pretty similar. the real tester will come in a couple of weeks on the club circuit which favours the lightweight low inertia cars.

jase having fun in the bowl:

abd creeping up on nev:

biggest drama of the day was seeing nev and dave come round twice with no sign of jase. fortunately the cause was a stop off the circuit to close the passenger door which had been left off the latch by a spectator.

soooo...... we packed up for the day and went to see the rolling stones at yas marina. jase was working saturday but my desire to be on track was too strong to leave the car undriven so i headed back to the autodrome to compete in my first ever autocross.

the clio really showed it's potential here. 2nd fastest on the day against a field of m3's, caymans, tuned evos and subarus etc. i was only beaten by a very well driven brand new pdk cayman s and reckon i could have had him with more practice. granted i was slick shod but cold 2yr old slicks are no advantage imo as there was bugger all feel hard under braking and the dust on track made it very slippery. it really was the chassis setup that allowed it to be such a weapon. just need a spare set of wheels to put my 888's onto next time!

all in all a great purchase for us.

we intend to do the spherical bearing and strengthening mods on the spare wishbones, take the angle grinder to the spare doors and fit perspex windows to them, and fit a silicon hose kit. that's about the level of spend we want to make but it is going to be out every weekend from now until summer. on these first impressions it is very impressive and we're already wondering how long our other cars will remain unsold when they're finished!

 

[shirt]

I've got the English and French version, pm your email address and I'll send them over

much obliged, you have email!

 

[shirt]

hmmm. i posted a couple of times earlier and sent a pm. both posts have disappeared along with all the photos. can a mod please tell me what i have done that may warrant the delete?

oh hang on they're showing again now i've posted. weird.

 

[MG cup]

cheers for the info. we read both yours and ian's build threads whilst pondering the purchase!

That must have taken a while haha.

The car looks brilliant, much better without the red but you should have kept the yellow IMO.

Make a project thread or post in the media section with videos/pics as you do your trackday's.

 

[shirt]

yep, productivity was not good whilst those were being read!

a new colour scheme will be added once we decide what it will be. i will start a project thread as we have a trackday each weekend for the next 6wks including yas marina for the first time. i'm sure jase will also be along to chip in soon.

andrew i got your email but not the dropbox link, can you please resend?

immediate issue is that we are having trouble selecting neutral/reverse. seems there is excessive play in the linkages, that's tomorro night's job. also we are both tall so would like to move the seat back but it's already almost touching the cage. any tall owners? what is your solution? hoping raising the seat slightly up and back will help.

 

[MG cup]

I am 6'2" mostly leg and I'm compromised on seat position (same seat). If I had the foresight I would have moved the whole cage back 100mm when fitting it to aid room. I find the wing on the seats touch the 'b' pillar first as mine are set central to the pedals. I levelled out the seat base to less of an incline so that I could gain some rearward moment. As said its not ideal and I might consider non winged seats when I get it out.

 

[Andrewclio]

andrew i got your email but not the dropbox link, can you please resend?

Sorry, I've sent them again now to both email address!

 

[shirt]

Sorry, I've sent them again now to both email address!

received! much obliged that will make things far easier from now on!

 

[shirt]

project thread started here:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...-cup-racer-chassis-17&p=10150718#post10150718