clio discs - 280mm diameter
F1 discs - 278mm diameter
just saying LOL
F1 car = small mass, high speed but less braking required as can carry more speed through corners (thus duty is less) = small brakes.
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F1 car = small mass, high speed but less braking required as can carry more speed through corners (thus duty is less) = small brakes.
clio discs - 280mm diameter
F1 discs - 278mm diameter
just saying LOL
material specs are the key difference there of course.
And a big reduction on unsprung weight ^^^^^^^^ thats nearly 5kg per wheel, mmmmmmm.
Regards Russ...........
My six pots are pretty much feather weight.
Chip spoke about a setup for Lesley's car as he has already built his setup. Not at one point did I say he didn't need bigger/better brakes, its a given with more power. What I did say was that imo my setup would suffice for Chips car with a better pad after the excess I had in braking on track (wasnt driving like miss daisy either), he commented that he didn't want to source another set of Tarox calipers because of the rarity and he would like a more easily available kit. That's exactly what my kit is, everything is readily available and expendable including hoses, calipers and pads, the only thing that needs making is the mounts which most kits will. They are also one of the better conversions going as far as quality that have been borrowed from another oem car but the down side is that 280mm disks will be the biggest disk that you will fit under a 15" wheel due to there size.
_WILL_
ClioSport Club Member
172 Cup
Brakes have one job. Turn kinetic energy into heat. The more kinetic energy the more heat. A turbo clio vs an NA clio that are otherwise the same on the same track will have different kinetic energy. The clio with the turbo will reach the end of every straight at a higher speed. Corner speed will be the same so at the end of every straight the turbo clio has to convert more kinetic energy to heat, so there is more heat.
As a result the turbos brakes will have to cope with and disrepate more heat. How you go about doing this is the big question. Bigger brakes are not an instant solution. Bigger discs should give you more power. Bigger pads should cope with the heat better. But for track work you need to get as much cooling on to the brakes as possible.
F1 cars have a huge amount of kinetic energy and travel so fast that the time between corners is very short so cooling is very important. But rather than worry too much they run brakes designed to run at the very high temps. The other issue with F1 brakes is that the have so much downforce and hence traction / grip they can put huge amounts for energy through their brakes very quickly. I imagine you are talking K Watt's of energy every second. That is a lot of heat.
As a result the turbos brakes will have to cope with and disrepate more heat. How you go about doing this is the big question. Bigger brakes are not an instant solution. Bigger discs should give you more power. Bigger pads should cope with the heat better. But for track work you need to get as much cooling on to the brakes as possible.
F1 cars have a huge amount of kinetic energy and travel so fast that the time between corners is very short so cooling is very important. But rather than worry too much they run brakes designed to run at the very high temps. The other issue with F1 brakes is that the have so much downforce and hence traction / grip they can put huge amounts for energy through their brakes very quickly. I imagine you are talking K Watt's of energy every second. That is a lot of heat.
F1 disks get to over 1000 degrees and they do as much as 40 percent of their braking on the rear the spread the load.
The combined surface area is therefore still quite large and the much higher temps they can run at means they lose heat much much faster.
Its just a totally different world.
The combined surface area is therefore still quite large and the much higher temps they can run at means they lose heat much much faster.
Its just a totally different world.
Nicely summed up. After reading it through again what you have said makes sense, on Lesleys car 280 would probably be alright. Looks like chip started talking about brakes for his car though and wires got crossed maybe..? unless chips thinking about another turbo conversion and wants to be prept...
Nicely summed up. After reading it through again what you have said makes sense, on Lesleys car 280 would probably be alright. Looks like chip started talking about brakes for his car though and wires got crossed maybe..? unless chips thinking about another turbo conversion and wants to be prept...
Yeah sounds like he focussed on lesley's car when I was only mentioning it in passing and I was then back focussed on my one.
bozothenutter
ClioSport Club Member
that and regulations speccing a 13" wheel
The wheels are very thing, and the inside is shaped specifically to allow brake clearance.
People need to stop thinking of F1 and road cars as anything like related for this sort of thing, the number of differences is huge.
_WILL_
ClioSport Club Member
172 Cup
On a more serious note what changes are you making, if any to rear brakes / rest of the brake system?
Even that car is SO much further from an actual modern F1 car than topgear would have you believe if you actually get down to the details. Its still gotta be about 20 years out of date at least and compromised for the road too.
Sorry mate, didnt see your edit.
No changes so far, but may need a brake bias valve to turn the rears down a bit, will see how I get on, the rear on my car does very little though already so I am hoping I will be ok.
_WILL_
ClioSport Club Member
172 Cup
I was just trying to stir it up a bit!!!
I guess the valve would just give you that extra ability to tune it if required.
TBH I think the new setup you have is going to be extremely good. I can see you ever running out of brakes, you will over heat or break something else before these give up. Plus you can probably get away with a less aggressive pad, maybe a coefficient of friction as low as 0.38 and still get the retardation you need, but prolong your disc life.
Only thing I would say is sort out some good cooling to them as well, it will never hurt them. Can always blank the cooling off if its very wet.
The reason I asked earlier about if the car is used on road was I was thinking along the lines of running a set up that sacrificed performance when cold, I am not sure what is available but it was just an idea. Not a good idea for the road tho!!
Had a supercharged mk5 Astra to do some mapping on tonight who lives about 120 miles round trip of pretty epic roads from my gaff so used it as an excuse for a pretty committed blast. Liking the brakes a lot so far, epic overtaking with the pace of my turbo Clio but with a pretty decent amount of confidence in getting rid of that speed well too.
no issues to report so far.
no issues to report so far.
Quick question for the future - may be.
Using the std (or even 2 part) 280mm disc and a 4 pot caliper along with the right bracket will they fit under my ET35-37 15" wheels which sit on 25mm spacers?
Using the std (or even 2 part) 280mm disc and a 4 pot caliper along with the right bracket will they fit under my ET35-37 15" wheels which sit on 25mm spacers?
Depends on exactly which caliper and what make wheel, but almost certainly yes, going to 280 instead (which as swede cup rightly says should be plenty on an n/a application if running aggressive pads) really goes give a lot more clearance and with 25mm spacers you certainly will have no issues near the spokes if you run the same offset disk as standard (disks can sit further in or out too but the standard Clio offset is spot on for space really)
-Will- explained and straiten thing out about the energy and the cooling
Yes more speed = more inertia to turned to heat
Yes more weight = more inertia to turn to heat
For those above you can start to brake sooner as you won’t follow very long a car wich are lighter and slower in top speed if you brake at their braking threshold point with the same braking system yours will overheat wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before there.
Aggravating isn’t when you have a faster powered car …..
Solutions ? Put your car on a diet and supersize you braking system…
2 way to supersize it:
Increase in cooling and increase in diameter that would result in less heat generated as you need less pressure on the disk to slow down the same amount of speed.
Unlike many people think… a big caliper mono or multi piston will give you biting power ( mainly by increasing force onto the pads and/or using bigger pad) and reduced braking distances ? but for how long ? how long do you thing that your oem disk and cooling will cop with that higher energy generated in a very short amount of time…. If that energy cannot be dissipate (with the cooling) it is worsless and just good to look at…. As in a very few laps you will reach fading point of your pad or bowling point of your fluid wich will result in the same. No brake….
Another thing that make me smile is by increasing disk diameter or caliper size you think that you will have an overall bigger braking Power ???? false ! you will just unbalance the load bias of you caliper forcing your front caliper to handle more of the energy you attempt to turn to heat .
How many of you have taken the time to use an infrared gun to check the temperature of your disk after a new set of pads or change on your caliper or bias ?
Take those fact a
300mm disk are close to 10% bigger that 280mm disks
Brembo from clio 3 have 21% more piston area than the oem caliper as well as bigger pads.
Now that will give you more clamping power for less pedal or pad pressur onto the front right ? by doing so you are upsetting the brake bias and taking power out of the rear system as such the front system wil have to handle that extra inertia or weight not being taken care ooff by the rear ….
I would say I was onw of the first in france and here to have a brembo set up in the front as I had it as far as 2010 on my clio 172… I was on the track every 2 to 3 weeks…. And gathered a lot of data…..
In a 280x24mm set up if you are not finding a way to restore the brake bias it is almost a wast of money unless for the look to put brembos on a clio 2…. As the front disk will not cop very long…. I have seen on the track a difference in temperature as much as 550 deg in the front for 59 to the rear with simple math the front set up was handling close to 85% of the heat generated …. And off course it could not cop very long……
I must say and witness that off course a 300mm disk will handle the extra inertia a lot better but it is not perfect….
All that to say is that balance and bias are the key to a monster braking system…
Shortly after I did fited a 38mm piston at the rear making my front /rear ratio perfect compared to my old oem set up…With my bias The car was lovely and I was using that extra bite to brake later into the corner and was able to run for a good 30 to 40 minute nonstop…. I was using then Carbone Loraine in the front and oem pad at the rear… temperature were about 420 degrees in the front for about 126 at the rear my front was handling 70% of the heat for 30% to the rear…..(overy close to) what it is supposed to be.
But then being tired of replacing the poor dust sealed from the brembos almost everytrack days I have fitted a set 2 pieces brake disk with a track of 283mmx26 with start venting but a venting pass almost 3 time larger than the oem disk….
Using a set of rc6 pads in the front and blue stuff one at the rear I was able to compete and beat Porsches untouchable breaking distances….
When on paddock temperature were 390 deg in the front for 136 in the rear a load share exactly 65/35
I’m using temperature to materialize simply load share between front and rear
but other tuner would have used a pressure gage and adjusted a pressure limiter to have the perfect balance with a slight of understeer or overtsteer as the driver required so…. Putting more pressure onto the rear to shift the bias….
Hahahah big one sorry for my English and I hope it help you guys picture that there is a lot more involve that the size of your Pennnnnnnnnnnxxxxx hahha caliper and disk….:lolup:
Yes more speed = more inertia to turned to heat
Yes more weight = more inertia to turn to heat
For those above you can start to brake sooner as you won’t follow very long a car wich are lighter and slower in top speed if you brake at their braking threshold point with the same braking system yours will overheat wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy before there.
Aggravating isn’t when you have a faster powered car …..
Solutions ? Put your car on a diet and supersize you braking system…
2 way to supersize it:
Increase in cooling and increase in diameter that would result in less heat generated as you need less pressure on the disk to slow down the same amount of speed.
Unlike many people think… a big caliper mono or multi piston will give you biting power ( mainly by increasing force onto the pads and/or using bigger pad) and reduced braking distances ? but for how long ? how long do you thing that your oem disk and cooling will cop with that higher energy generated in a very short amount of time…. If that energy cannot be dissipate (with the cooling) it is worsless and just good to look at…. As in a very few laps you will reach fading point of your pad or bowling point of your fluid wich will result in the same. No brake….
Another thing that make me smile is by increasing disk diameter or caliper size you think that you will have an overall bigger braking Power ???? false ! you will just unbalance the load bias of you caliper forcing your front caliper to handle more of the energy you attempt to turn to heat .
How many of you have taken the time to use an infrared gun to check the temperature of your disk after a new set of pads or change on your caliper or bias ?
Take those fact a
300mm disk are close to 10% bigger that 280mm disks
Brembo from clio 3 have 21% more piston area than the oem caliper as well as bigger pads.
Now that will give you more clamping power for less pedal or pad pressur onto the front right ? by doing so you are upsetting the brake bias and taking power out of the rear system as such the front system wil have to handle that extra inertia or weight not being taken care ooff by the rear ….
I would say I was onw of the first in france and here to have a brembo set up in the front as I had it as far as 2010 on my clio 172… I was on the track every 2 to 3 weeks…. And gathered a lot of data…..
In a 280x24mm set up if you are not finding a way to restore the brake bias it is almost a wast of money unless for the look to put brembos on a clio 2…. As the front disk will not cop very long…. I have seen on the track a difference in temperature as much as 550 deg in the front for 59 to the rear with simple math the front set up was handling close to 85% of the heat generated …. And off course it could not cop very long……
I must say and witness that off course a 300mm disk will handle the extra inertia a lot better but it is not perfect….
All that to say is that balance and bias are the key to a monster braking system…
Shortly after I did fited a 38mm piston at the rear making my front /rear ratio perfect compared to my old oem set up…With my bias The car was lovely and I was using that extra bite to brake later into the corner and was able to run for a good 30 to 40 minute nonstop…. I was using then Carbone Loraine in the front and oem pad at the rear… temperature were about 420 degrees in the front for about 126 at the rear my front was handling 70% of the heat for 30% to the rear…..(overy close to) what it is supposed to be.
But then being tired of replacing the poor dust sealed from the brembos almost everytrack days I have fitted a set 2 pieces brake disk with a track of 283mmx26 with start venting but a venting pass almost 3 time larger than the oem disk….
Using a set of rc6 pads in the front and blue stuff one at the rear I was able to compete and beat Porsches untouchable breaking distances….
When on paddock temperature were 390 deg in the front for 136 in the rear a load share exactly 65/35
I’m using temperature to materialize simply load share between front and rear
but other tuner would have used a pressure gage and adjusted a pressure limiter to have the perfect balance with a slight of understeer or overtsteer as the driver required so…. Putting more pressure onto the rear to shift the bias….
Hahahah big one sorry for my English and I hope it help you guys picture that there is a lot more involve that the size of your Pennnnnnnnnnnxxxxx hahha caliper and disk….:lolup:
Clio 182 FF
Noos is back!...
Clio 182 FF
Need to get back in the trader section and sell them as a kit!
