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172
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
The 172 is actually a tad quicker than the GTi-6 in a drag style race and pretty similar to the Rallye.
The 306s actually weigh more than you think, with the GTi-6 weighing in at 1215kg and the Rallye at 1163KG, so heavier than the Clio in both mk1 & mk2 trim levels, let alone the Cup.
GTi-6:
Power - 167bhp @ 6500rpm
Torque - 142lb/ft @ 5500rpm
Weight - 1215kg
0-60 - 7.2secs
0-100 - 20.1secs
Speed - 140mph
Rallye:
Power - 167bhp @ 6500rpm
Torque - 142lb/ft @ 5500rpm
Weight - 1163kg (52kg less than GTi-6)
0-60 - 6.9secs
0-100 - 19.2secs
Speed - 140mph
However, the 6 speed box on the 306s will help carry them on to the max speed quicker due to the higher (4th, 5th & 6th) gears being stacked more closely than youd think.
The 6th gear is not just an extra ratio stuck onto an exisiting 5 speed box, all the ratios are different and in fact the top 3 gears are similar to a 5 speed close ratio box but theyre stacked closer together. As a comparison, the 306 will do 110mph @ 5000rpm in 6th, so not much different than a 5th gear. However, it will do 130mph in 5th gear, without going into the red, then there is an extra gear to go, so top end is great on the Pug.
I know that the gearing on the mk2 & Cup is closer in 5th than the mk1 is, so although a mk1 is lighter and faster than a mk2 initially, once up to higher speeds, the mk1 is at a disadvantage with its tall 5th gear.
Once on the move the Pugs really can shift.
ive atually beat a gti-6 in my valver. and he was trying, as it was after the fast and the furious was out. we both came out of it in a racing mood, he followed me down the dual carriage way... lights changed red.. race was on! both 2 up.. i out accelerated him to start, to the point he was just behind me then the distance just stayed the same all the way! he couldnt catch up, then went into a sharp sweeping bend... i carried on regardless he bottled it and braked, so off i went
I destroyed a 306 rallye about 3 times on the same stretch of lights. Easily - i was pushing him along and having to back off to avoid hitting him up the arse in every gear. Not impressed at all. He was tazzing it around all night and it looked quite quick. Not quite enough! Im sure they handle really well tho. Ive driven all types of the 306 and felt that the 6-speeders had a really bad turning circle, especially on right lock.
The one i destroyed had (from what i could see) a magnex back box and possibly an induction kit (noise). Looked really nice tho. Pity it was so slow
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
There is no way you should be able to beat a Rallye that easily!
The mk1 172 is quicker... but not by much.
I have plenty of experience in 172s as well and did a trackday (105 miles worth) in a mk1 at the end of the summer, so I do know what Im talking about. Done plenty of road and track driving in that mk1 and it is a great car, but on a drive (not straight line sprint) the Pug is quicker.
Mine was on the rollers just before Xmas and ran 151bhp @ wheels, so it is a good example and its virtually standard (only a Pug Sport Group N element). Wheras my mates GTi-6 only ran 147bhp @ wheels (same time, same place) yet he has an induction kit, a chip, a full Magnex zorst & a de-cat. He was NOT a happy bunny...
Handling wise, the 306 is fantastic in every respect and I do know the mk1 Clios do understeer if pushed, wheras the mk2 is better.
Turning circle is poo though.
of course its quicker, you own one.
Your mates mk.1 mustve had michelins on as my heavily-warn eagles hardly understeer on the road. Nothing can keep up around corners as i am the best driver in the world - even better than "2fast4u".
Why didnt you buy another 106 gti?
I guess the rallye i raced mustve been a badged-up diesel.
But as weve both only driven/raced one mk.1 172 and 1 rallye 306 then we cant really comment on a true comparison as you wrote cars can have differing bhp outputs etc. Doesnt sound like your friends Blue 172 is very fast(?) maybe that induction kit he fitted destroyed the already pretty amazing induction system?
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
of course its quicker, you own one.
But I said the Clio was faster?!
I aint here to start some petty argument...
Your mates mk.1 mustve had michelins on as my heavily-warn eagles hardly understeer on the road. Nothing can keep up around corners as i am the best driver in the world - even better than "2fast4u".
Yeah, it came with Michelins on originally, but hes had allsorts on since. So yours "hardly" understeers, which is good, but it still does and in the dry, with Eagles (worn ones too) on it then that will help. Have you driven a mk2 then?! They are better.
Why didnt you buy another 106 gti?
Because Id had one for 2 years and wasnted summat else. Whats the point in selling one car and buying another one thats the same?!
Was gonna buy a Cup (would still have one), but after just lashing out on a new 3 bedroomed Semi, I decided against it for the time being and got the Rallye instead as it was a good deal.
Ive also got a modded R5 GT Turbo for weekends & traackdays, but will probably sell that in the next few months as I dont really use it enough.
I guess the rallye i raced mustve been a badged-up diesel.
How should I know?!
But as weve both only driven/raced one mk.1 172 and 1 rallye 306 then we cant really comment on a true comparison as you wrote cars can have differing bhp outputs etc.
Ive driven 2 different mk1s, 3 different mk2s and a Cup, so I have driven plenty of Clios mate and not just quick 5 minute blasts either. Also driven another Rallye and 4 different GTi-6s, so plenty of experience of different ones there too. They do differe between cars though, as I have driven a mk2 that felt slow and another that was rapid.
Doesnt sound like your friends Blue 172 is very fast(?) maybe that induction kit he fitted destroyed the already pretty amazing induction system?
The mk1 is fast, but not as fast as yours... apparently!
He aint got the Green induction kit on anymore, he has got a sealed unit on there now and it is better. When it had the original air box and filter on it was not much quicker than my old 106 GTi was though, so it dont make much difference.
Craggys boggo VTS is not much slower, so my 141 bhp 106 GTi was gonna be even closer.
As a drivers car the 306 gti-6 rallye is better than a 172, easily. Havent driven a normal GTI-6. They were one of the last old school hot hatches, worth driving if you ever get a chance. Performance isnt everything.. Though still, again, a 172 is still the better overall owners pacakge.
**Flame suit on**
Who cares. We buy or cars based on our own judgement. I personally like the 306GTi-6 and have driven one on many occasions. I think that on the road they are closely matched and get to the same goal (ie fast hatchbacks) by slightly differing methods.
It appears that after 3 weeks away, that us Clio owners are getting a little bit shortsighted in our view of other cars, and should chill a little.
Just remember, one mans meat is another mans poison.
**Flame suit off**
OK i agree with you the 306 rallye is better. There you go.
Anyway, paddy - how about trying some full throttle gear changes? if you listen carefully when jons driving he tends to give it more revs and seems to slip the clutch in each gear change therefore giving a little boost to his gear changes, and not bogging down in each gear. Ive found the clutch quite harsh in my 172 but it responds well to full throttle gear changes. Especially 3rd to 4th! maybe handy for quarter miling? Jons willy seemed to have a better 3rd gear and it looked like it was gaining slightly until you rev limitered it and he came past. Seeing as the mk.2s have a better torque spread (?) maybe itd be better if you changed gear at 6500? where does your limiter cut in?
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Better package as in better interior, better engine, easier to live with in general, a better road car. The clio cup is the closest to the rallye you can get today.
Err...
Better interior
Are we talking about the GTi-6 or the Rallye here?!
If you are talking about the Rallye, then the Cup is the only model you can compare it too. In that case, youre telling me that the Cup interior is great and the seats are more supportive than the Rallye?!
If its the GTi-6 youre talking about, then why is the 172 (not Cup) better if they both have leather/alcantara seats, climate control, ABS, leccy windows, rain sensitive wipers, 4 speaker stereo & CD changer, multiple airbags, etc... as from where I am sitting they are both fully loaded as standard. There aint much, if any difference there.
Better engine:
Well, they are both tuned 2.0 litre 16v NA engines, putting out similar amounts of power & torque, plus the Pug engine doesnt need VVT to obtain that power, so youre comment is flawed. In what way is it "better" then?!
The 306 engine was also launched a long time before the Clio and Id hardly call 167bhp being down on power in 1996, nothing was close for a long time, but it aint gonna be hard to get an extra 5bhp to match the Clio is it.
There is also the 6-speed box that the Clio aint got, so the ratios are better spread to use the power banb, but of course there was no mention of transmission, so well forget that for now.
Easier to live with in general:
Well a GTi-6 vs a 172 (not Cup) is pretty much a dead heat as they are both fully specced up with all the luxuries. However, the 306 has a larger passenger cabin and more boot space, so Id say that made it easier to lvie with than the Clio, but if you were solo it wont really matter.
If its the Rallye vs the Cup, then I would rather have ABS (safe, not dead), a spare wheel (not a can of mousse), more load space and more cabin space (5 seats vs 4) myself, so again the 306 is easier to live with than the Cup in my opinion.
The only negative side with the Pug is that you loose a bit of steering lock in one direction due to the 6-speed box, but so does the CTR and it doesnt affect the daily driving, so not an issue.
a better road car:
Now, out on the road both these cars are very fast and can embarrass a lot of more expensive machinery, so they are both superb road cars.
The 6-speed box on the Pug is also geared superbly, so once on the move you are always in the power and top end acceleration is helped out by the additional ratio.
No bad comments about the 306s driving either, unlike the Clios imperfect driving position and understeer, plus the 306 was/is rated as one of the best handling cars of all time, so again youre comment is flawed.
Read what bigmoose wrote...
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Simon172 -
LOL
You always seem to argue a point for a while, then just kinda give up...
Well, I know the 172 is a bit quicker off the mark as standard and Im not denying that, never have, never will. However, over a given stretch of road (not just straight), then it would be a very close call.
Theres foook all in it bw a Rallye and a Cup. The Pug is much nicer on road, the Cup better set up for the track. Ive had one of each.
Rich-DQuote: Originally posted by Rich-D on 06 January 2003
I know that the gearing on the mk2 & Cup is closer in 5th than the mk1 is, so although a mk1 is lighter and faster than a mk2 initially, once up to higher speeds, the mk1 is at a disadvantage with its tall 5th gear.
Ive heard similar things about the Mk1 having longer gearing (I know its true of 1st and 2nd gear, but not sure about the others) but Ive never actually noticed the Mk2 having an advantage at higher speeds... I went on a trackday in November with a couple of Mk2s from this forum, and in a straight out drag from 70 to around 120mph, my Mk1 was gaining if anything (only by a couple of car lengths tops). Just wondered if youd anything quantative, or whether it was just something youd heard.
Whats all this with understeer problems, as well? I kept up with an Elise that was getting pretty lairy (out of shape) around Donnington and my car (running on 28000 mile old Michelins!!!) felt safe and agile - very pointy around the higher speed corners. Sure, you can make it understeer by carrying way too much speed into a corner or being a little too fluid with your steering input - but as long as you steer decisively, it c***s a rear leg up, turns in and grips tenaciously!
Do you think the geometry was right on that 172 Mk1 you drove on track? EVOs Mk1 172 had incorrectly adjusted suspension geometry when they tested it (against 106GTi and 306GTi, amongst others) and it performed nearly as well in terms of handling, but when they had it adjusted didnt they comment it wouldve probably beaten them both? (Im working on vague recollection and hear-say BTW, so I could be wrong!) Okay, EVO arent exactly the worlds most respected road testers, but theyre a good benchmark for how the car might perform in semi-skilled hands...Cheers
Matt
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Pillesnoppen -
You are a lucky man having both!
Simon172 -
Nah, youll win one day...
matt4478 -
There is definately a difference in the gearing between the mk1 & the mk2 (& Cup), not just a change in final drive, but the ratios are different, particularly 5th gear, which is very tall in the mk1, too tall in my opinion.
Can find the ratios out, Ive seen them before... will look for them and let you know.
With regard to understeer, it is not just in my experience, as I have seen reviews of the mk1 that also commented on this. Its not bad, dont get me wrong, but the front does want to wash out if pushed hard, unlike some other cars Ive driven, that you can put into a corner at the same speed then they will turn in and you can drift the tail out, with no fear. Ok, so maybe I am being a bit harsh here and was pushimng a little too hard, but I did manage to catch and pass an Audi S3 on the track in the mk1, which impressed me. Have to say that the turn in on the mk2 is better and the Cup is sharp. Tyres can and DO make a huge difference though, as does the road/track surface, so our two experiences were probably quite different.
Incidentally, I played chase with an Elise for a few laps too!
You have quoted a test from Evo in your post, not seen that, wouldnt mind a read though, but from what Ive read in Evo they comment on the imperfect driving position of the mk1, yet I am 63" tall and didnt find a problem. Only thing was that I felt I needed more lateral support from the seats. Remember reviews are very much opinion based and some people like different things...
Dont think there was anything wrong with the suspension geometry on that mk1, as once Id gotten used to it I was putting some very quick laps in. Just that I was trying to drive it the way I was used to and it wouldnt play ball.
This is me >>>
http://www.bookatrack.com/g2/rich_d/0/640.13.Clio172Elvingtonpic0106_07_2002.jpg
FUN!!!
I do love the Clios (hence me using this forum for several months) and very nearly got a Cup, however a new house and all the assocaited costs have made me decide that I should wait for a while (sensible head), so I got the Rallye for the time being as it was about 1/2 the cost of a Cup, but in essence the same thing.
Got the GF a Clio RT, but it aint quite the same...
Havent had the Rallye on a track yet as Ive only had it a few weeks, but I am very keen to do so. Need to get a spare set of wheels though, as I do not wanna wreck my nice new SO2s. Got a spare set of Renault fit 15s (off my R5 GTT) but they wont do for the Pug.
Rich-D
Cheers for the speedy reply! Id be interested in finding out exactly what is different between the gearboxes of the Mk1 and Mk2 172s (might change to a Mk2 box if mine ever gives up!
)Totally agree with what you say, and Ive pressed the same point on here before too - reviews are based on opinions and everyone has their own - Ive read reviews which declare the Mk1 172 as having one of the ultimate FWD chassis (VBH said the chassis was so exciting it made her "want to squeal"), and similarly those which pass it off as nothing special: So clearly, the handling isnt to everyones tastes! For me, its the most drivable and enjoyable car Ive ever driven (includes a Porsche 996 Turbo and Caterham Fireblade!) it just suits my style down to the ground... I seriously thought about a 306GTi instead of the 172 - I reckon theyd be every bit as fast over a country road (albeit with very different styles) - but Id had so many problems with second hand cars, I just walked into the Renault dealership and forked over a wedge of cash to save the hassle!
PS - Your picture clearly shows you werent trying hard enough - all four wheels are on the ground!
Matt
also i cant see a sport badge underneath the renault sign!!!!???
I say a badged-up diesel!
only kiddin - maybe it fell off?Matt - youre not trying hard enough if your gearbox hasnt given up yet! my second ones on the way out only at 22,600 miles......nothing to be proud of tho
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Matt -
Yeah, I will find the ratios for both the mk1 & mk2 then let you know. The mk2 is closer all round and would be better for acceleration, so on the lighterweight mk1 would be a lot of fun!
You obviously aint thrashing it hard enough if youve not wrecked the gearbox yet...
Glad to see we agree about reveiwers/drivers and different views on the same car. Some mags, mainly Evo & AutoCar seem to change their minds with the weather, but its down to the different journalists having different opinions, although it does sometimes seem like they contradict each other.
Sorry to hear youve had some bad luck with used cars.
Luckily Ive not had any problems with the many used cars Ive had and have never actually owned a new car, although come close on a couple of occasions. Prefer to pick them up at a year or two old and miss out on some of the depreciation, which has worked well for me.As for not trying hard enough, that is only a gentle low(ish) speed bit of the track, so no sideways. Trust me I was r@oing the little Clio and I will take a photo of the tyres I used (reads wrecked) on that trackday! They are the ones on my spare R5 rims and are fooked now!
Had a fantastic day and my mate was getting a little concerned that I was getting a bit too quick in his car and he never even did 1 lap. He was there in his recently built Westfield kit car, with a 170bhp Honda Blackbird lump in it, so was more bothered about that.
Will have to meet up at a track event and see how our cars compare on the track!
whats the deal with insurance on tracks? i gather if you ding it you gotta pay cos in my documents it says a big "no" to racing. Can you pay for insurance on the day on the specific track or do you just have to be careful? Ive heard stories of someone i think at goodwood who crashed their car on the track and they crane lifted it to outside the grounds of the track so that he could claim?
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Well, you either risk it (if you crash, you pay) or you can get special track insurance that covers you for that event.
Ive not had track cover whenever Ive done it and I know of many other people who just do the same. Keep it in your mind that if you stuff it you are gonna have to pay and it will help keep a cool head and you tend not to drive like a d!ck.
My mate used to get cover when he had his Evo6, but only because it was worth so much and it was that fast that he would probably do a LOT of damamge if he did have a crash. Doesnt bother with his Clio or his Westfield though.
The reason I have my R5 GTT is for track use, so if I crash the thing it aint that bad as it is not worth a huge amount and I can either fix it myself or just strip it and get another shell, or scrap it, etc... low risk.
Unfortunately on the Renault Clio 172 Track day someone crashed their 172 and didnt have insurance. Was alot of body panel damage and the guy had to explain this to his Girl Friend who used the car as well. At the end of the day its a personal decision on how you view risk.
Ive heard a rumour that at some road car motorsport events insurance companies secretly take photos of registation plates. Dont know how true this is.
Rich-D
ClioSport Club Member
E90 LCI 330d
Or tape them up...
Ive seen a few cars with the plates taped up.
Probably cars on finance, or lease vehicles, etc... as these are the only people that can do anything about it. Your normal insurance company have no problem, as you aint covered so it aint their problem.
At the end of the day, its a risk you take.
Hmm this is going off topic abit but ill add my part anyway.
Having come from a R19 16v to a 306 GTi-6 i can say that its one storming car, now between a 172 and a GTi6 i would say that there is nothing in it as you cannot really compare a 6 speed car against a 5 speed car (the GTi-6 is quicker to 100 than a clio williams which has a better power to weight ratio over it) but the 306 does give 80% of its torque at 2500 rpm (around 115lbs of torque there abouts) so pulls nicely.
From the lights you would be hard pressed as its quick to 60, and in some cases a GTi-6 has been measured under 7 secs to 60, but its real power is the gearbox, where as you have to go through 4 gears to get to 100mph, the GTi is actually in 5th gear by then, its close ratios keep it in the power better and thus make it quicker. Even above this speed the car will pull as until you hit the 127mph mark your still in 5th gear with one gear to go, and with a book speed of 137mph it is achievable quite quickly for a car in its category. Anyone whos raced one and said they left it isnt telling the whole truth, most of it is down to the other driver but to 60 from 0 it will be neck and neck (unless the other driver isnt very good).
Tony
Hard one to call.
The gti6 rallye I used to own would be well beaten by my civic type r but my mk 2 cliosport would keep in touch with it at the same speeds (up to 110). The disadvantage of course is that you waste time changing up an extra gear over normal and cannot get the time back in a gti6 like you can in a type r as the type r perfoms so much better at the top end than the gti6.
It seems that the extra gear was only put in to help the relatively low power (140@ bhp at the wheels was normal) for the too heavy mass (1180 kg for the rallye) by todays standards. A "good" 172 would muller a rallye.
Bye Bye
