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Good read that was Nick, and to be honest your cars still gonna go like a rat up a drain pipe, with that kind of power and still be tractable out of the corners.
The amount of work you guys have put into this is awesome, but like you said its hard to get big figures out of these engines in N/A form.
Now.... can i have a go please
The amount of work you guys have put into this is awesome, but like you said its hard to get big figures out of these engines in N/A form.
Now.... can i have a go please
RB 182
A passenger ride yes.
JohnnyE
ClioSport Club Member
ITB'd Clio
Also, starting to look for October trackdays. Javelin at Oulton is fully booked[/QUOTE]
This ones in November i might be doing it
http://www.javelintrackdays.co.uk/t...rowse&category_id=441itemid&vmcchk=1&Itemid=1
[/QUOTE]This ones in November i might be doing it
http://www.javelintrackdays.co.uk/t...rowse&category_id=441itemid&vmcchk=1&Itemid=1
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
I have no idea to be honest. Not sure how it would effect it?
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Good read that was Nick, and to be honest your cars still gonna go like a rat up a drain pipe, with that kind of power and still be tractable out of the corners.
The amount of work you guys have put into this is awesome, but like you said its hard to get big figures out of these engines in N/A form.
Now.... can i have a go please
Cheers Matt
Yeh it's still a quick car alright. Should be good round track too. Cannot wait to get back out there now.
RB 182
Update #22 - Manifold development and build
[FONT=&]During the middle stage of the engine build I came across the chance to buy a Clio super 1600 manifold for quite a good price. After researching on the spec we unfortunately found out that the port spacing did not match the F4R. This led me to think of a similar idea which could be fabricated in-house, or 3D printed from high temperature polymers.[/FONT][FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]From Various ideas and mock-ups on Solidworks (3D CAD), we came to the conclusion that we would make a one piece manifold and experiment with the 3D printing. The company I work for uses a very experienced and local business that model makes, casts, and 3D prints for all areas of industry. They quite often make one off SLA or SLS parts for Rally teams, so it seems like a good route to go down for the development and end product we wanted to achieve. These are normally fast turnaround, accurate, and fairly cheap compared to machining from solid or an investment casting. The 3D printing also allows you to design parts that could never be replicated in mass production, or with any form of tooling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&]I took onboard this philosophy and created a 2 piece manifold that incorporated the injectors and trumpets into one part. The port length and air box volume was calculated by Nick based on our cam choice and engine spec. I was tempted to do the whole design as one, but we thought it would look very smart if the manifold were made from a white polymer, and transparent for the air box. After the final quotation and chat with the moulding company, we decided to park that idea till next year when the budget was more realistic, and we knew if the performance was realistic for the engine. I know you can argue that spending close to £1k on a manifold design is crazy and might as well buy a Jenvey kit, but the whole point of our project from day 1 was to achieve the maximum from a very limited budget, but also to try out new ideas.[/FONT][FONT=&] The image below is just a fancy kevlar and carbon render, the real product would have had a clear air box which would be seen through the slam panel cutout.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The next stage was to replicate this design but to be fabricated from aluminium. Luckily I work for a fabrication company that have high spec laser cutting, turning, milling, and specialist welders for ali and stainless steel. I carried over the design to be fabricated from single 45mm ali tubing with oval ends and a bent radius (as Nick has shown on the previous page). We sorted the bending issue via a local tube specialist, but unfortunately it was proving impossible to achieve the oval end to mate with the engine porting. At the same time, James (JMS) was selling one of his first off RS2 manifolds, we took the opportunity to buy this and eliminate the need to taper the tube and machine injector bosses into it. The manifold was already port matched and came with spacers. These have been sold off to fund the cost for the kit. Big thanks to James for selling these, we were tempted to buy his cast Jenvey version, but held off to put money in other areas of the build.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]One of the areas Fred commented on for the RS2 manifold was the map sensor. Under his guidance I positioned the sensor so that it was in direct line to the throttle body and perpendicular to the air flow. The air sensor was placed into one of the runners and then filed down to match the internal diameter. You will notice that the air box is not tapered as the original idea. We noticed that the super 1600 air boxes are of similar shape, so took a punt at keeping the box at a constant profile and adding an internal deflector plate at a later stage if need be. The super 1600 air box does have an inverted section on the left side; this is due to the bonnet being so close at that part of the box. Rather than copy this, we just took an angle grinder to the bonnet.
[/FONT][FONT=&]
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The final steps were to laser cut the 3 and 5mm Ali sheets, machine o ring grooves in them, bend/fabricate the air box and complete assembly. I have some fantastic people I work with, all had their own specialist input into each area of manufacture. In the process I learnt more about welding and sheet rolling than I would normally do on my daily work. We did the trial fit in two stage, the first was to check for general fit, then the second was to finalise the design ready for full welding. The first off sample had the runners at -3.5 deg to cancel out the jenvey casting which is designed at this angle, I then doubled this so that the pipes ran a little further down rather than a direct into the head. This change only lowered the air box by 10mm, but enough to fit under the bonet and compensate for any engine movement under load. Future plans will be to add an anti vibration mount to the alternator adjustment bolt, this will dampen any [/FONT][FONT=&]resonance in the air box and help support it further under load.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The final parts were powder coated white and satin black in-house. I’m lucky in that our company does a white run in the morning for Marine products, and black in the afternoon for Rail products. Everything was done so we had the job of assembly and port matching the parts. We took the decision to bolt each section on and port match to each other at home. This was a simple task of using a round and half moon file, then finish off with a dremel sander and emery cloth. The air box used M6 rivnuts to hold onto the back plate. I used an IP67 rated sealant putter to seal the box, this comes in strip form and can compress to 1mm. The rivnut head helped to fix the back place properly in place, if we used an internal weld nut or bolt, the puttly would become thinner over time and run the risk of an air leak or fixings coming lose.
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]The coil pack mount was rushed through to get the car running. As you can see, there should be a slot in the plate for the coil pack to sit lower, eventually I will re-design this and modify the breather plate so that the whole unit will sit lower. At the moment, we cannot fit our strut brace do to the quick bodge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
A few final shows of the final product, we will update the final installed pics this weeked
[/FONT]
[FONT=&]During the middle stage of the engine build I came across the chance to buy a Clio super 1600 manifold for quite a good price. After researching on the spec we unfortunately found out that the port spacing did not match the F4R. This led me to think of a similar idea which could be fabricated in-house, or 3D printed from high temperature polymers.[/FONT][FONT=&]
[FONT=&]From Various ideas and mock-ups on Solidworks (3D CAD), we came to the conclusion that we would make a one piece manifold and experiment with the 3D printing. The company I work for uses a very experienced and local business that model makes, casts, and 3D prints for all areas of industry. They quite often make one off SLA or SLS parts for Rally teams, so it seems like a good route to go down for the development and end product we wanted to achieve. These are normally fast turnaround, accurate, and fairly cheap compared to machining from solid or an investment casting. The 3D printing also allows you to design parts that could never be replicated in mass production, or with any form of tooling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&]I took onboard this philosophy and created a 2 piece manifold that incorporated the injectors and trumpets into one part. The port length and air box volume was calculated by Nick based on our cam choice and engine spec. I was tempted to do the whole design as one, but we thought it would look very smart if the manifold were made from a white polymer, and transparent for the air box. After the final quotation and chat with the moulding company, we decided to park that idea till next year when the budget was more realistic, and we knew if the performance was realistic for the engine. I know you can argue that spending close to £1k on a manifold design is crazy and might as well buy a Jenvey kit, but the whole point of our project from day 1 was to achieve the maximum from a very limited budget, but also to try out new ideas.[/FONT][FONT=&] The image below is just a fancy kevlar and carbon render, the real product would have had a clear air box which would be seen through the slam panel cutout.
[FONT=&]The next stage was to replicate this design but to be fabricated from aluminium. Luckily I work for a fabrication company that have high spec laser cutting, turning, milling, and specialist welders for ali and stainless steel. I carried over the design to be fabricated from single 45mm ali tubing with oval ends and a bent radius (as Nick has shown on the previous page). We sorted the bending issue via a local tube specialist, but unfortunately it was proving impossible to achieve the oval end to mate with the engine porting. At the same time, James (JMS) was selling one of his first off RS2 manifolds, we took the opportunity to buy this and eliminate the need to taper the tube and machine injector bosses into it. The manifold was already port matched and came with spacers. These have been sold off to fund the cost for the kit. Big thanks to James for selling these, we were tempted to buy his cast Jenvey version, but held off to put money in other areas of the build.
[FONT=&]One of the areas Fred commented on for the RS2 manifold was the map sensor. Under his guidance I positioned the sensor so that it was in direct line to the throttle body and perpendicular to the air flow. The air sensor was placed into one of the runners and then filed down to match the internal diameter. You will notice that the air box is not tapered as the original idea. We noticed that the super 1600 air boxes are of similar shape, so took a punt at keeping the box at a constant profile and adding an internal deflector plate at a later stage if need be. The super 1600 air box does have an inverted section on the left side; this is due to the bonnet being so close at that part of the box. Rather than copy this, we just took an angle grinder to the bonnet.
[/FONT][FONT=&]
[FONT=&]The final steps were to laser cut the 3 and 5mm Ali sheets, machine o ring grooves in them, bend/fabricate the air box and complete assembly. I have some fantastic people I work with, all had their own specialist input into each area of manufacture. In the process I learnt more about welding and sheet rolling than I would normally do on my daily work. We did the trial fit in two stage, the first was to check for general fit, then the second was to finalise the design ready for full welding. The first off sample had the runners at -3.5 deg to cancel out the jenvey casting which is designed at this angle, I then doubled this so that the pipes ran a little further down rather than a direct into the head. This change only lowered the air box by 10mm, but enough to fit under the bonet and compensate for any engine movement under load. Future plans will be to add an anti vibration mount to the alternator adjustment bolt, this will dampen any [/FONT][FONT=&]resonance in the air box and help support it further under load.
[FONT=&]The final parts were powder coated white and satin black in-house. I’m lucky in that our company does a white run in the morning for Marine products, and black in the afternoon for Rail products. Everything was done so we had the job of assembly and port matching the parts. We took the decision to bolt each section on and port match to each other at home. This was a simple task of using a round and half moon file, then finish off with a dremel sander and emery cloth. The air box used M6 rivnuts to hold onto the back plate. I used an IP67 rated sealant putter to seal the box, this comes in strip form and can compress to 1mm. The rivnut head helped to fix the back place properly in place, if we used an internal weld nut or bolt, the puttly would become thinner over time and run the risk of an air leak or fixings coming lose.
[FONT=&]The coil pack mount was rushed through to get the car running. As you can see, there should be a slot in the plate for the coil pack to sit lower, eventually I will re-design this and modify the breather plate so that the whole unit will sit lower. At the moment, we cannot fit our strut brace do to the quick bodge.[/FONT]
[FONT=&]
A few final shows of the final product, we will update the final installed pics this weeked
[/FONT]
Last edited:
Keith185
ClioSport Club Member
Awesome piece of work, simply amazing
Truly Awesome work there!
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Cheers Russ. No chance of it fitting under the slam panel with that runner length and plenum volume. With the inner bonnet skim removed we have about 10mm clearance and have solid engine mounts. I think the plenum would have to be reduced to such an extent that it would be detremental to air flow in to the velocity stacks.
Ive just read Mikes write up again and I feel pretty proud that we saw this through
Ive just read Mikes write up again and I feel pretty proud that we saw this through
We are moving the alternator lower on my new race engine by refabricating the mounts to get away from this issue
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
The alternator body isn't that close to be honest - in the grand scheme of things. The closest part to the plenum is the alternator tensioning thread. If you had different length trumpets the back plate position will change so this might introduce other issues. We didn't want to angle the runner anymore to try and maintain smooth internal runner transitions - if that makes sense. To lower the plenum further I would want to bend the runners - which could be possible. Essentially there is still some space to be utilised directly behind the grill.
Pictures will explain it easier if Mike reads this later he might grab some further photos
Pictures will explain it easier
if Mike reads this later he might grab some further photos
182cup & 172 racecar
Brave men for having a go. Like it.
Clio 172
Billy Big Balls to both of you.
shiftspark
ClioSport Club Member
R53 GR86
Top work fellas , whens it going into production ?!!
RB 182
I need to make time to do costings and chat to my manager before this design would ever go into production. Alot of people helped outside of working hours or squeezed bits in on their lunch break. Full on production would mean setup times, material, labour costs etc, but also hold up work as we are stacked out in production atm. If the money worked out then it might be worth a small batch run, otherwise it's just too much time and effort for minimal gaines on our behalf. I might consider it in the new year when I've had a break from work
If we tested the manifold on a standard setup it would give us more scope to making it or not. As Nick has mentioned, the high comp setup we have doesn't really gain the maximum from this design.
If we tested the manifold on a standard setup it would give us more scope to making it or not. As Nick has mentioned, the high comp setup we have doesn't really gain the maximum from this design.
RB 182
Washed and taken some pics
JohnnyE
ClioSport Club Member
ITB'd Clio
Looks good Mike. Front wheels have come up suprisingly well cconsidering how much DS3000 brake dust was on them
Off out to clean our cars now
Give you a call later to talk about trackdays
How do you find DS3000 as im looking to have a different brake set up for next year's sprints, at the moment i have DS2500 and Brembo HC's?
Looking great guys
BMW 330ci sp/ 172Cup
Knowing you i'd imagine that question contains a certain level of sarcasm
better be safe than sorry, and the sealant used came in a fixed width tape. Couldn't work out how much it was going to spread etc. Ps- if what Mike is telling is correct we need an alternator
Ps- if what Mike is telling is correct we need an alternator
Yea whilst running yesterday it was about 11.5v
RB 182
If you are using standard brake calipers then these are spot on for overall performance and cost. I ran DS2500 on my 182 and these are a big step ahead in regards to stopping power and reduced brake fade. They do like to munch the discs a little but a worthy upgrade.
RB 182
Yep. That's what Mike said. Sounds fudged then
Just spoke to Fred about it, does seem to be the case
I can try my battery on the car and get a reading, or just re-charge and take it from there. Lets hope the battery and alternator are not fudged now.
