Cup Brakes

[DanG]

There was a massive debate about ABS Vs. Non-ABS cars in EVO mag about 6 months ago...

They had all sorts of letters off people including an ABS design engineer.

From what I can remember the up shot of the debate was that the thinking behind ABS is that in the event of emergency when you have to brake to the maximum the ABS system will allow you to keep steering.

Locked up wheels tend not be the best for swerving out of the way of artic lorries...

As for stopping distances the ABS system also proves to be better. Once you lock a wheel your stopping power dissappears... hence the idea of pumping the brakes once you lock up. With ABS you never reach this limit and will therefore stop quicker.

Anyone who reckons their right foot is more educated in braking pressure than a computer can come and drive me round anyday... meanwhile Ill relax in the knowledge that Ive got the safety net of ABS.

I can fully appreciate that on a constantly varying road surface as you normally experience in rallies, ABS may not be the best idea due to its unpredictability when coming into contact with loose surfaces.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Quote: Originally posted by Frosty on 07 April 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 07 April 2003


std 172 (non cup) 100mph to stop in 3.99sec, quicker than a caterham superlight that weighs 450kg + 911 Turbo + Ferrari 360 + Diabalo

Id say the brakes are pretty good!!!!!!

There is no way a standard 172 will outbrake a 996 turbo from 100 or any speed for that matter. Id like to know where you got that information.

Frosty, i got "that information" FROM THIS SITE!!! Its in the magazine articles section on the main page tested by Autocar

Quote - Autocar (13th July 2000)



Clio Renaultsport 172 - Proves that high performance can improve safety
The 172 bhp Clio Renaultsport has been crowned the undisputed hot hatch champion by Autocar magazine following its annual 0-100-0 acceleration and braking showdown published on 28 June. Not only was the Clio 172 confirmed as the top performing car in the hot hatch group, but it proved the safest of all 28 cars on test as it decelerated from 100mph to 0mph in only 3.99 seconds - beating cars including Ferrari 360 Modena, Lamborghini Diablo GT, Caterham Superlight R500 at 450kg, and Porsche 911 Turbo.

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by zoog on 07 April 2003


if ABS is so good why do the world rally cars not have it?



- precisey for the reasons i state above.

Because joe public are not all rally drivers, and rally drivers need the ability to lock their wheels as it helps them get round hairpins and the like faster, and how often do rally drivers have another car pulling out of a junction infront of them ? hmm ?

If you were a rally driver (as you stated below "i might be a rally driver" ) then you would have known this.

As stated already, they banned it in F1 because all the drivers were approaching the corners way to fast and relying on the abs to carry them through the corner while still braking, instead of driver skill.

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by Raify on 07 April 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Frosty on 06 April 2003



A car equipped with ABS will ALWAYS stop quicker than its NON-ABS equivalent. It is a requirement for ABS systems.

Thats not really the case, ABS only means that youve got more chance of steering under hard braking rather than locking up. It doesnt make it brake any quicker.

With regards to the 172 vs Cup argument, Ill start the bidding at 32DD

ABS can and in most cases in real life does mean a car equipped with ABS will stop quicker than one without.

Unless you are a highly experienced driver and know exactly the limit of the grip you are going to get from the present surface that you are driving on then chances are you are either braking too hard (lock-up) or not braking hard enough.

either way you could have stopped quicker with abs.

exceptions to this would be a lair of fresh snow when locking the wheels would cause a build up of snow on the front tyres.. stopping you quicker.. on ice your fooked either way.. shouldnt have been going that fast..

 

[RobFenn]

It all comes down to the driver, at the end of the day ABS is pretty clumsy but can sort you out, an ok driver should be able to stop more effeciently and therefore faster.

ABS should be standard on every car on the road, including the Cup.

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by RobFenn on 07 April 2003


an ok driver should be able to stop more effeciently and therefore faster.

how ? can you judge the exact level of grip over varying surfaces that you are driving on at the time of an accident ? and then apply the exact pressure to the brake pedal just before the tyres break traction, and steer to avoid an obsicle in oh I dunno say with .5 of a second thinking time ?

 

[BenR]

then add 0.3 reaction time

oops, thats already a second!.....bang

 

[RobFenn]

Hmm but youre going OTT. Since when did you have to measure the varying surfaces etc etc? When it starts to lock you let off and then brake again, and initally you progressively pump the brake. I am comparing it to someone who would just put there foot through the bulkhead. I didnt mention steering. Lets not over rate ABS, even though i recommend it its not perfect at all.

 

[Frosty]

Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 07 April 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Frosty on 07 April 2003

Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 07 April 2003


std 172 (non cup) 100mph to stop in 3.99sec, quicker than a caterham superlight that weighs 450kg + 911 Turbo + Ferrari 360 + Diabalo

Id say the brakes are pretty good!!!!!!

There is no way a standard 172 will outbrake a 996 turbo from 100 or any speed for that matter. Id like to know where you got that information.

Frosty, i got "that information" FROM THIS SITE!!! Its in the magazine articles section on the main page tested by Autocar

Quote - Autocar (13th July 2000)



Clio Renaultsport 172 - Proves that high performance can improve safety
The 172 bhp Clio Renaultsport has been crowned the undisputed hot hatch champion by Autocar magazine following its annual 0-100-0 acceleration and braking showdown published on 28 June. Not only was the Clio 172 confirmed as the top performing car in the hot hatch group, but it proved the safest of all 28 cars on test as it decelerated from 100mph to 0mph in only 3.99 seconds - beating cars including Ferrari 360 Modena, Lamborghini Diablo GT, Caterham Superlight R500 at 450kg, and Porsche 911 Turbo.

Im still not convinced. Here are the figures that I read:

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=cs_clio-diag.jpg

http://erc.qmuc.ac.uk/cliosport/file.php?image=cs_porsche-diag.jpg

Thoughts?

 

[BenR]

not perfect, but name a human that is.........

there are good brakers then there are computers............

F1 would use it if they could, they already use computers to measure acceleration traction.......

i dont see why people cant admit, i race, ahve done for ages, learnt on a rear braking solid axle racing kart, now if sideways , setting up and locking all the time isnt a good learning ground i dunno what is.....and i still think ABS is great.....true ona track you can do better for lap times as you can setup the car, but youll still be hard pressed to do a sure stop faster.

 

[DanG]

ABS sorts you out when things go wrong that you have no control over...

To say a fair driver would stop earlier in a non ABS car isnt correct IMO.

The moment you lock up a whell you have lost the majority of your stopping power. Its true that you should now let off and reapply the brakes (pumping) but by doing this an ABS system would already have gained the advatage... stopping you before you would have done without it.

 

[172man]

FROSTY hellooo???? any one hOme?

Clio Renaultsport 172 - Proves that high performance can improve safety
The 172 bhp Clio Renaultsport has been crowned the undisputed hot hatch champion by Autocar magazine following its annual 0-100-0 acceleration and braking showdown published on 28 June. Not only was the Clio 172 confirmed as the top performing car in the hot hatch group, but it proved the safest of all 28 cars on test as it decelerated from 100mph to 0mph in only 3.99 seconds - beating cars including Ferrari 360 Modena, Lamborghini Diablo GT, Caterham Superlight R500 at 450kg, and Porsche 911 Turbo.
The Clios combination of disc brakes front and rear with an anti-lock system and electronic brake distribution means that maximum braking effort is individually regulated to each wheel. This system, combined with the Clios light kerbweight of 1,035 Kg, enables it to slow quicker than just about anything else on the road.
The cars were tested in five groups - Hot Hatches, Performance Bargains, £50,000 Supercars, Ultimate Production Cars and Readers Cars - and included every type of fast car from the 137 bhp Peugeot 206 GTi to a Nissan Skyline with I,000bhp!
The Hot Hatch group was contested by three sub-£16,000 road cars - the Peugeot 206 GTi, the 180bhp Seat Leon 20VT and the 172bhp Clio Renaultsport. The Clio was the first car to stamp its authority on this test, recording an overall acceleration and deceleration time of 23.55 seconds, a result 1.57 seconds faster than the Seat Leon 20VT, which took second place, and 2.03 seconds quicker than the Peugeot 206 GTis time of 25.58 seconds.
0-60mph in 6.64 seconds
This performance was all the more outstanding given that the Clio 172 scorched to 60mph in only 6.64 seconds and on to 100mph in 19.08, which, as Autocar commented, is well under the 20 second barrier that separates genuinely swift hatches from mere pretenders. "What Autocars 0-100-0 test proves is that the Clio Renaultsport 172 is the hottest hot hatch around for under £16,000, as well as the one of the safest cars in the world under emergency braking," comments Thierry Moreau, Marketing Director at Renault UK. "Clio Renaultsport 172 has definitively shown a clean pair of heels to its closest opponents." continues Moreau. Keep your distance has never been a more apt description of what you should do if following a Clio 172 - even if youre driving a Ferrari.

 

[paddymph]

hehe!! o-100 in 19 though? Dont think so!

 

[172man]

they once had dunno if they still do the 172 0-60 @8.2 LOL, sad f**kwits drove with the handbrake on. But hey they stopped it well enough

 

[172man]

Keep your distance has never been a more apt description of what you should do if following a Clio 172 - even if youre driving a Ferrari.

 

[anthonyj207]

I think the point is, whether you have ABS or not, keep your distance from the car in front of you!

Remember, thinking time, reaction time...

However, I must admit that ABS (on my valver) saved my life when a lorry doing about 50 pulled out in front of me on the motorway when I was doing 80. At that speed youre glad you have steering control over the car when braking.

The point of a non ABS car is a greater degree of control of your braking under track conditions. ABS cars tend to have the system cutting in when you dont want it too, (like trying to outbreak someone into a corner).

Hope Im not talking too much crap here...

 

[RobFenn]

I dont have much faith in anti lock and so never rely on it. The thing to depend on is the fact you can steer and brake at the same time, which is of course great in emergency situations as even if you panic you can hopefully crash into something softer! However i tend not to do this either as ive been taught to brake in a straight line.

 

[Frosty]

Ill tell Kimi Raikkonen to watch out for you then Rob!

 

[RobFenn]

Id save my kamikazes for Shoemaker, Rubino or villnerves

 

[Norfolk-172]

No offence RobFenn, but have you ever tryed pumping the brake pedal in an emergency? If so you would have to agree its not an easy thing to do.

I went on a Lotus driving day a few years back, all one on one with the instructor and you in the Elise on the Lotus test track. Fantastic. They set up a sharp s bend with some cones, got you to keep the car at 60mph in 2nd, hesd into the bend, brake hard just befor the first bend, which makes the wheels lock up then try and pump the pedal so you could regain the steering and go through the s bend. This was BLOODY difficult, and bare in mind this is in one of the most infomative cars ever made, no servo on the brakes just pure feel. Now on the road in something like a Clio...........in an emergency.....forget it, you will NO WAY BEAT ABS!

Why do you have "not much faith" in ABS

 

[y0z2a]

I have locked up in my cup and trust me it is scary!!!!

I am confident in the brakes, but not as confident as I was in My old one with ABS.

:-(



/y0z

 

[Norfolk-172]

Quote: Originally posted by y0z2a on 08 April 2003


I have locked up in my cup and trust me it is scary!!!!

I am confident in the brakes, but not as confident as I was in My old one with ABS.

:-(



/y0z

Good call, the EVO long term Cup has put the sh*ts up em a few times! They were talking about getting the ABS put back on it.........lol

 

[172man]

reanault manchester crashed on cus it doesnt have it... o well....

 

[y0z2a]

well,

I will give you the perfect example (mentioned abouve). I was coming up to a roundabout at about 30. The car in front of me (just pulling onto the roundabout) stalled. I glanced to see if there was more traffic coming, and the car in front had stopped, I dropped the anchors, skidded and had to pop the handbrake to stop going into the back of her, AND that was on the maxgrip surface at roundabouts. I dont think I would have been as close if i had had ABS.

/y0z

 

[Eddd]

/y0z,

Pop the handbrake? How did that help?

Ed

 

[Dust]

oo, that happend to me last week, but i didnt stop and went into the back of them. The standard Valver brakes arnt too good.

 

[Dust]

More likey to stop with the handbrake on. Its the last resort if you dont think your going to stop. eeeeaaaaakkkkkk.

 

[172man]

my brakes bite like hell with red dot cross drilled grooved things + pads feck all fade its scary i think i could out brake a super car!

 

[RobFenn]

Quote: Originally posted by Norfolk-172 on 08 April 2003


No offence RobFenn, but have you ever tryed pumping the brake pedal in an emergency? If so you would have to agree its not an easy thing to do.

I went on a Lotus driving day a few years back, all one on one with the instructor and you in the Elise on the Lotus test track. Fantastic. They set up a sharp s bend with some cones, got you to keep the car at 60mph in 2nd, hesd into the bend, brake hard just befor the first bend, which makes the wheels lock up then try and pump the pedal so you could regain the steering and go through the s bend. This was BLOODY difficult, and bare in mind this is in one of the most infomative cars ever made, no servo on the brakes just pure feel. Now on the road in something like a Clio...........in an emergency.....forget it, you will NO WAY BEAT ABS!

Why do you have "not much faith" in ABS





Well i dont pump it like im having an epileptic fit, its not like the brakes lock every time you apply them! The key is progressive braking. Its difficult to compare with an elise because as you say theyre unservoed..umm..maybe im just the god of braking? The fact is if your about to have a crash you still need stopping distance, doesnt matter if you have abs or whatever, youre going to crash! If theres a reasonable amount of space for abs to work then my left foot can too!

 

[172man]

so your brain and eyes can work faster than an ABS system? errr?

 

[RobFenn]

Sorry ive just realised i havent actual answered your questions...lol

No i havent been in an non abs car in an emergency, yet. However have been in a similar consquenced incident many a time, one time where i sustained hefty injuries.

I dont have faith in ABS because it doesnt work in slippery conditions well enough.

 

[DanG]

Come on Rob, you cant seriously be suggesting that you back yourself 99 times out of 100 to stop better without antilock brakes.

I agree that in icey or loose gravel situations antilock brakes may extend the stopping distance than that of a non antlock system. Due mainly to the fact that in those conditions its the build up of material in front of the wheel that can form a wedge to help you stop as you skid through it.

As it is extremely uncommon to find those conditions on most of our roads, how can you not have faith in ABS? In 99% of situations it will stop you sooner, and the other 1% you will still be able to steer...

My main experiences of ABS and NON ABS behaviour have occured on snowey roads. In my old crap fiat uno applying thr brakes in snow usually instigated a skid which was very difficult to keep in a straight line...

Having had the same prob in a Golf 4 motion i can safely say the ABS keeping the wheels turning saved me from running into the back of someone...

ABS is an absolute bonus.

 

[KDF]

Quote: Originally posted by RobFenn on 08 April 2003


I dont have faith in ABS because it doesnt work in slippery conditions well enough.

err.. in slippery conditions not having abs aint gonna help any better... abs will slow you down as quick as the conditions will allow while still retaining the ability for you to steer round the obsticale.

There are two things which affect braking

1) the level of grip between the tyre and the ground (friction)

2) the level of friction being applied to the braking system (stopping power)

now in order to stop in the shortest distance you braking system must be more powerfull than the level of friction in the road (all but old shagged out cars are) the next thing hindering you deceleration is the level of grip, it dont matter if you have 6 meter brake disks with 40 pot calipers if your tyres cant maintain traction with the ground its gonna lock.

PLUS and just to be a complete b*****d, if it was that slippy you shouldnt have been going so fast

As stated before I agree on gravel and fresh snow abs might hinder you.. but not on ice.. on ice your fooked either way..in reality if conditions are that bad you shouldnt really drive (yes i know its not very realistic but..)

 

[RobFenn]

Well a fiat uno (bless it) doesnt brake well full stop. Im talking in the sense of the same car like a Cup verus 172 for example. I am confident if i was in the same car but one with abs and one without i would stop quicker. No one complains that most ford focuss have ABS...

Anyway im not anti abs as i have declared in many a thread, in fact i think for the general public its a must!

 

[DanG]

Bet you a tenner you wont...

 

[Frosty]

RobFenn: You say progressive braking is the key in wet conditions. What do you think ABS does, or have you not read pages 1 and 2 of this thread? Just to recap, it means that you can hammer the brake pedal and let the computers apply as much braking force as it can to each wheel without actually fully locking up. No human in a non-ABS car can get anywhere near the lockup threshold and stay there for the entire duraction of the braking!

 

[RobFenn]

No human?

So ABS is faultless?!

 

[4paws]

One of the major advantages of ABS is that it applies to individual wheels.

If you pump the pedal you reduce braking to all wheels while the ABS only reduces braking force to the wheel which has lost traction.

ABS not withstanding the Clios brake so well that I worry as much about the cars following me than those in front.

My passenger complained about the seatbelt bruise the first time a Merc pulled out in front of me and that was withoiut the ABS kicking in.

 

[BenR]

Quote: Originally posted by RobFenn on 08 April 2003

However i tend not to do this either as ive been taught to brake in a straight line.

Not a very good circut racer then are you!

Better not put you on a circle track then! lol

 

[rt172]

Scared the sh*t out of myself in my girlfriends non-ABS Fezza. Was doing 30mph on a slightly damp road with the sun in my eyes. Only saw at the last minute that light were red and people were crossing. Slammed on the brake and skidded. Crapped myself. Thought I was going to kill someone. JUST stopped before the line by gentle pumping and re-application of the brakes.

Also was driving like a tw*t in my 1.4 when I was pissed off about something and forgot to brake in time. When I did I just skidded right across a main road. Right across 2 lanes . Much as Id love a Cup, the lack of ABS puts me off.

Rhys