DS1.11 overheating

[Sideways31]

As per title, I'm having problems with DS1.11 pads overheating on a ph2 172.
Car is used for fast road only, would probably be much worse on track.
I'm using Brembo calipers with PMS 300mm kit, Ferodo brake discs (no Brembo discs available here, but both have 36 vents and same design) , the rest of the car is almost standard.
The heat isn't really causing much fade or smell, as these pads can stand a lot, The only problem is that the pads disintegrate and smear on the discs causing brake judder. Changing pads and discs solve this only temporarily.
Weird thing is, with stock calipers and ds1.11 pads it used to get hot enough for the discs to glow red during daylight, and develop cracks from heat, yet never had any trouble with pads disintegrating...

As far as cooling is concerned, I really don't see any effective way to use brake ducting as the discs vent from the outside, fogs and arch liners removed as well as the fabia splitter
Discs are stone cold on touch after cruising for 10 mins on the highway and stopping with the handbrake,
Rear brakes work fine, Bled tons of fluid including the abs unit, all 8 brembo pistons move freely (calipers are new).
Only thing I had in mind is the 16mm spacers (required for clearance with the stock wheel) hurt cooling massively? Yet didn't find any info about this online.


This photo was taken after a 20 mins downhill session, using maybe 50% of the engine power, never had problems there with the stock setup. Friends with faster cars and stock pads also have no problems there.

And ideas welcome!

 

[Darren61]

Sticky calipers?

 

[robzracing]

I had exactly the same with them on the race car and standard callipers.
Great pads but too aggressive and destroy discs.
Gone back to CL RC 6 now


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[JB21]

What do the pads look like? Have they crumbled?

 

[Krarl]

That looks like pad pickup to me. Try and get them roasting hot (might have to go on track for this) and they should clean up

My old F3 pads used to do it on the road because they needed heat and they squealed like f**k too

 

[Amos91]

How long have they been in? From what I remember reading they aren't a road friendly compound and can be damaged from repeated moisture exposure etc.

Tbh they are a bit overkill on the road.

Those discs look completely normal. Ds1.11s do that to the discs and mine have no vibration.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

They might not be getting hot enough, or you could try grooved discs.

I ran 1.11 on my Megane with these https://www.godspeedbrakes.co.uk/discs/262-330mm-clio-sport-197200-front-g-hook-discs-and-bells.html

Granted they're bigger but there was a lot more weight to stop. Absolutely abused the brakes on track and they always cleaned up fine but I did have trouble with the standard discs.

 

[Sideways31]

Thanks for all the comments!

@Darren61 no sticky calipers, all 8 pistons move with the same resistance.
However if I try to press only 1 piston, with 1 hand blocking the one above/beneath it, and a brake pad blocking the 2 others, it requires decent effort.
With the stock calipers I could never compress them by hand, even though they were rebuilt a few times.
But as mentioned, discs are 100% cold when cruising.

@robzracing Unfortunately I can't really see a better option, CL's are bad value for money as they don't last from what I understand, these should cope with fast road I believe.. I really like them except for this problem that hasn't happened before I actually used them for about 3000 miles of fast road with the same setup without this problem in the past, really unsure what's changed.

@JB21 They look fine without missing bits even when they're almost fully worn. With stock calipers I used to have missing chunks on all 4 pads, but never had them disintegrate on discs.
Discs always looked terrible with these pads, but there's a difference now, when the judder starts, I can see the pads smeared on the discs.

@Yorkshire Pudding this only happens when pushing on slower speed B-roads without a good chance for heat dissipation and a lot of braking, only on the downhill, I can assure you they heat up enough, You can't touch the wheels for a split second without getting a burn, 20 minutes after that car is stopped.

@Amos91 happens since they're new, no rain, low moisture. Are you sure yours look like this, very uneven and heavy layer from the pads? Or just look scored as usual with ds1.11?

@Ph1 Tom how do grooved discs help? And don't they reduce pad life hugely if you had the chance to compare?

 

[Steven103]

Grooved discs are supposed to allow a channel for hot gases to escape helping to prevent build up of deposits. The edges of the grooves are shockingly sharp (like, instant paper-cut type sharp) on very high end motorsport discs. Sure, higher pad wear but it's a trade off as with most things.

 

[Sideways31]

How do gases cause the pads to smear? Doesn't heat cause them to smear?
I thought gases only cause a reduction of brake pressure as they push the pads back, and isn't even relevant in modern pads?

 

[Steven103]

Gas is resin evaporating, then rising through pad material & potentially solidifying on surface when brakes aren’t being applied as well as the pad pressure argument? I agree with your point about conventional wisdom being that “modern” pads (whatever that means in the context of heavily regulated OEM pads, completely unregulated Clio track day pads, or the absolute pinnacle of motorsport pads from Endless, Pagid, PFC etc) having less of an issue.

Perhaps a more relevant point r.e.grooves would be the ability to wipe the surface of the pad clean during each application? If you inspect the grooves closely you can often see they’re semi-filled with deposits in the direction of rotation.

Some pads are sensitive to bedding in procedure?

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Grooved discs should stop them smearing. As above they'll clean the pad surface.

 

[Amos91]

Ill try snd

Thanks for all the comments!

@Darren61 no sticky calipers, all 8 pistons move with the same resistance.
However if I try to press only 1 piston, with 1 hand blocking the one above/beneath it, and a brake pad blocking the 2 others, it requires decent effort.
With the stock calipers I could never compress them by hand, even though they were rebuilt a few times.
But as mentioned, discs are 100% cold when cruising.

@robzracing Unfortunately I can't really see a better option, CL's are bad value for money as they don't last from what I understand, these should cope with fast road I believe.. I really like them except for this problem that hasn't happened before I actually used them for about 3000 miles of fast road with the same setup without this problem in the past, really unsure what's changed.

@JB21 They look fine without missing bits even when they're almost fully worn. With stock calipers I used to have missing chunks on all 4 pads, but never had them disintegrate on discs.
Discs always looked terrible with these pads, but there's a difference now, when the judder starts, I can see the pads smeared on the discs.

@Yorkshire Pudding this only happens when pushing on slower speed B-roads without a good chance for heat dissipation and a lot of braking, only on the downhill, I can assure you they heat up enough, You can't touch the wheels for a split second without getting a burn, 20 minutes after that car is stopped.

@Amos91 happens since they're new, no rain, low moisture. Are you sure yours look like this, very uneven and heavy layer from the pads? Or just look scored as usual with ds1.11?

@Ph1 Tom how do grooved discs help? And don't they reduce pad life hugely if you had the chance to compare?

Quick pics from the garage -

 

[Krarl]

If youre getting DS1.11 too hot on the road youre a) driving like a dick and b) dont have adequate cooling to go with your fancy brakes

I've never managed to get DS1.11, Mintex F3 or CL6 to the breaking point in standard calipers on HC discs

 

[Sideways31]

Ill try snd


Quick pics from the garage -

View attachment 1490788

Thanks, this gets me thinking if there's a chance discs can look like mine and not vibrate?

 

[Sideways31]

Okay something is officially fucked.
New discs, spent hours cleaning the wheel hubs to bare metal, very gradual break in (4 stops from 40-10, park for an hour, 5 stops, etc...) until perfect looking transfer layer.
Then, 5 minutes into a downhill I know like the back of my hand, massive brake judder, discs look much worse than the picture I sent here.
It never looked like this before, not with the standard calipers + ds1.11, and not with the brembos and ds1.11.
I've driven in this road for hundreds of times with the standard setup, and never had problem. This must be due to massive overheating, as the discs looked perfect after break in (10 stops from 60).

What could have gone wrong to cause this? 😓

 

[PhillipM]

Sticky piston, pads too tight in the the caliper sliders and binding when they warm up, calipers misaligned slightly on the mounts, air in the fluid applying a bit of drag when the brakes are warm, master cylinder not quite coming back far enough when the fluid is hot and causing brake drag (are the linkages adjustable on Clios? Never looked)

 

[Brigsy]

As above id would be looking at the calipers to see if they are sticking, change fluid etc. Have the calipers got the anti rattle shims in? if yes bin them, and make sure the pads have a mm or so of play so they do not bind in the caliper when hot.

You're in control of brake judder

Brake judder is a common problem that can have a number of causes. Find out the different types of judder, it's causes and solutions.

www.ferodo.co.uk

Also might be worth looking at your driving style, not on the brake pedal for ages are you? Ive never had ds1.11 no where near overheating on the road.

 

[Usr117063]

What brake fluid you using?

 

[mantis946]

As above I would check the pad has free movement when cold sat in the carrier, as they get hot they will bind.

 

[numbers_]

iirc there was an issue with the ferodo pads being too tight a fitment so the needed to be machined down where they sat in the carrier.

 

[youngarthur]

I went from 340 to 312dia. plain disks, withDS1.11 pads. These are used on road and track, hot or cold, no brake judder, or problems. I am either on, or off the brakes, no lingering on the pedal. The one problem?. Its destroyed the alloy wheels.

 

[Sideways31]

Thanks, there's a ton of vertical play on the pads.
Only now it came to my mind that the 280mm brembo discs used to develop heat cracks, yet the cheaper ferodo discs I'm using now, has absolutely no signs of cracks or heat damage. So I doubt there's an actual overheating problem.

So fitted some old endless mx72 pads, not only they are not overheating and not smeared on the discs (just a normal looking transfer layer), they actually have a hard time getting up to working temp lol.
So I'm pretty sure the problem is with faulty ds1.11 pads.
They bite great cold and hot, so not fake for sure, but disintegrate easily.

 

[npt]

You always need a semi grooved disc when running aggressive pads or the above happens

 

[Sideways31]

rooved disc whe

You always need a semi grooved disc when running aggressive pads or the above happens

Any reference for this mate?
Never had any problems with the stock brakes and ds1.11...

 

[charltjr]

Fake pads maybe? It's getting to be a bigger and bigger problem apparently. Do you still have the packaging?

New QR Code on our Packaging

By simply scanning the code with a smartphone’s camera, those installing the product enjoy a host of benefits and even the opportunity to learn new skills that will last a lifetime.

www.ferodo.co.uk

 

[_WILL_]

Bump. Did you get to the bottom of the issue?

 

[Bluebeard]

I can’t see how DS1.11’s can overheat or become crap on the road.
I use them on my track car and they take an absolute beating and the pads and discs are still showing plenty of life after 3 full days.

my friend (who is a considerably better/faster driver than me) is also using them on his 200+ BHP clio 172 so let on track and managed around 7 track days on his with zero issues

My guess is, they aren’t getting hot enough.

if you don’t use the car on track, why do you need track/race/endurance based pads??

 

[Euan Baguette]

Are we sure they are 1.1s?


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[_WILL_]

I can’t see how DS1.11’s can overheat or become crap on the road.
I use them on my track car and they take an absolute beating and the pads and discs are still showing plenty of life after 3 full days.

my friend (who is a considerably better/faster driver than me) is also using them on his 200+ BHP clio 172 so let on track and managed around 7 track days on his with zero issues

My guess is, they aren’t getting hot enough.

if you don’t use the car on track, why do you need track/race/endurance based pads??

If they weren’t get hot enough I don’t see them causing this issue. I just see them performing poorly. When you looks at their specs it doesn’t make sense.
From the description it seems like there was loads of fast down hill driving so I can see them getting really hot. But still don’t see this ever being the result.

Are we sure they are 1.1s?


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I’m not convinced. I want to know if the parts checked out as genuine.

I wonder if it’s the discs that are failing or another component that is in the local area of the car. If they are getting as hot as suggested then other parts are being heat cycled beyond what they will have been designed for.

 

[JamesBryan]

They'll take over 800°c

Absolutely no one is getting them that hot, unless the brakes are seized on for a full session on track.

 

[Krarl]

People that use DS1.11 on the road are pretty mongy. Unless you drive like an absolute f**king c**t then you will not get them hot enough

 

[Krarl]

If youre getting DS1.11 too hot on the road youre a) driving like a dick and b) dont have adequate cooling to go with your fancy brakes

I've never managed to get DS1.11, Mintex F3 or CL6 to the breaking point in standard calipers on HC discs

Oh look I said it before😂😂

 

[JamesBryan]

From further reading the initial posts, it sounds like the bedding in procedure wasn't done correctly at all.

5 stops from 40 to 10 is no where near enough.

Need about 40 stops from 100 to 30 on these.

 

[JB21]

I've used them on the road in a 182 and Octavia VRS, when I couldn't be arsed changing them out after a track day. Zero issues whatsoever. However being enduro spec, they will wear much quicker when used on the road as they need real heat for optimum wear rates.

 

[Bluebeard]

From further reading the initial posts, it sounds like the bedding in procedure wasn't done correctly at all.

5 stops from 40 to 10 is no where near enough.

Need about 40 stops from 100 to 30 on these.

You’re meant to bed them in??

f**k that. Fit, get out and go for it! 😂

 

[JB21]

From further reading the initial posts, it sounds like the bedding in procedure wasn't done correctly at all.

5 stops from 40 to 10 is no where near enough.

Need about 40 stops from 100 to 30 on these.

Yup, they also require a full cool down to cure properly.

 

[JamesBryan]

You’re meant to bed them in??

f**k that. Fit, get out and go for it! 😂

Yeah you can do that with them.

I do the same with my PBS.

 

[Krarl]

You’re meant to bed them in??

f**k that. Fit, get out and go for it! 😂

Tbh bedding them in on track is probably better and more ideal

1 warm up lap to clean the discs and then cane them for 10 laps, then 1 cooldown lap to let them harden

 

[JamesBryan]

Tbh bedding them in on track is probably better and more ideal

1 warm up lap to clean the discs and then cane them for 10 laps, then 1 cooldown lap to let them harden

Definitely a lot easier than trying to do it on the road with people dawdling everything.