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DS1.11 overheating



stebat

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
So, I just did a track day yesterday with brand new DS1.11 pads with brand new Brembo HC disks. And I gotta say it didn’t feel right to me either. I had the same marks on disks and they got really really hot after 3-4 laps. I would say I was getting brake fade. Clearance if fine as I paid attention when fitting and filed a good few mm off so they fit with 1-2mm play. Wheel nuts came loose too after being so hot. Wheels are free to spin, but after yesterday I’m going to refurbish the calipers and see how it goes again.
 

LiamPa

ClioSport Club Member
  200 cup
I had the same issue with the same setup but Clio 200, I thought I had bedded them in correctly but then had a track day with lots of juddering once warm it seems I underestimated how hot you need to get them during the bedding. I inspected the pads and they where glazed with lots of pad debris on the disc...

864FBDED-644A-4919-B6C3-1628D5651E36.jpeg

Quick rough sand on the pads and fine (1000 grit) on the disc to try and remove the worst of it.

C2D5A7BB-08D3-4AAF-828D-F6D180DC250E.jpeg

I then went on a 6am bedding in session where I slowly brought the pads up to ‘race temperature’ starting with 70-40 before moving up to 70+-15. I found them to very slowly improve as they warmed and got no juddering. I have then left them to cure for 24hrs, the discs look a lot better and feel smoother hopefully a successful track day this Friday..
 

stebat

ClioSport Club Member
  Clio 172
Haven’t had chance to inspect yet might do it tmr night get a closer look.

To be fair I too thought I had bedded them in properly. But maybe not.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
I bed my brakes. Let them cool and then go through the process again just to be sure.
If theres no cooling or you are running wheel arch liners your brakes will get seriously hot. The standard disc size does not have a high enough heat capacity to dissipate the heat of a long session without help. My wheel studs all undid and my CV joint died due to excess heat.
If you want good pads for sustained high temps then look at a more modern mettalic compound. I use WInmax W6 and wouldnt change. The Ferodo DS1.11 feels too lifeless and wooden for me.
 
  ff ph2
Forgot to keep you posted,
I bought a brand new GT86, had no problems with the stock brakes as far as fading/vibrations, but they really lack bite (require excessive pedal effort), and have excessive pedal travel.
I then bought DS1.11 pads for the front and the back of the GT86 and was a very happy man for a short time... Until they started vibrating when getting hot (after about 5-10 minutes of fast downhills). After stopping the car, the discs had massive deposits, just like in the Clio. And they cleaned each time, with street driving and cold braking.
Swapped them for some cheap stoptech pads, no vibrations, no matter how hot they get.

Just to remind you, I had no problems in the same conditions with the stock clio 172 brakes and DS1.11, but had the exact same issue with the DS1.11 and 197 brembos on the 172 (which was solved by swapping pads, even on the same used discs).
For those who mentioned brake bedding, let me assure you I tried every possible variation you could and couldn't think of :)
The deposits from those pads go away quickly after some cold braking, you can see it on the discs, and new deposits cause vibrations each time.

I've reached for the seller of the pads (someone really reputable here) with the full details, he sent the details to Ferodo, and this is their answer:
I have spoken to Ferodo and they said the DS1.11 is an endurance race pad, what will happen if you run them at much lower temperatures (on the road) they will deposit pad material on the discs and then they will vibrate. They need to be run at sustained high temperature. You will be better with a DS2500 for road use and swap to the 1.11 for track use.

This makes absolutely no sense, as you can see the discs clean of deposits after some cold stops, and it's "general wisdom" everywhere that "race pads" clean deposits when their cold, and only transfer deposits when they're hot (which again, can be seen on the discs after a session).
For now I've given up on these pads as there seems to be no solution.
@npt mentioned slotted rotors might solve this, but there are none for the GT86 where I live. Maybe @LiamPa can try it and let us know?
 

bozothenutter

ClioSport Club Member
You're bedding in wrong, don't be gentle.
Brake a few times HARD from about 100Km/h until you smell them.
Then drive around not braking much and repeat.
Then take them out, put in some road pads, and save them for good hard runs!
 
  Clio 197,with megan'
I bedded inDS1.11, and never had a problem, cold or hot. Go to a known dealer, George for instance, his prices are competitive, to ensure you don't get fakes, and please people, don't take this the wrong way, but get on the brakes, get off, don't linger. I have inherited Winmax, so I will see what they are like on track, compared to the DS 1.11.
 

LiamPa

ClioSport Club Member
  200 cup
Update in my similar situation to the OP’s, overall a very successful track day on Friday with no juddering, I slowly brought the pads up to temperature (just in case). Used the first session to do this and found the pads start to get better and better as the day went on, to the point where I could push and dropped around 3s in time from before when I obviously over cooked them (1.39 down to 1.36.9 at Goodwood) which I was very happy with considering my PS4’s where too hot for the conditions (R888R next purchase I think..)

See below for a few shots of the disk now where you can near see the even deposits across the disk.

46F72A8A-6D5E-46B3-8BDE-C42A4D7687F8.jpeg


8F215A3A-9E98-4E6B-99CB-02E447C57622.jpeg


I agree with @youngarthur, getting on and off the pad is important (I am guilty of lingering due to still learning trail breaking) and the simple fact that these are race pads and designed to be raced. However it seems bedding in is extremely important, I followed the following page but paid more attention to the graph as it clearly shows how the pad is slowly brought up to temp which is what I did (the second time)

7761D5AD-7733-4774-AAC0-B9C029268D5F.png


 

npt

ClioSport Club Member
  BMW 320d- 172 cup
Any reference for this mate?
Never had any problems with the stock brakes and ds1.11...
You can't deglaze the pads so it'll stick to plain discs, pad deposit sticks to grooved discs also but nowhere near as bad, that's what the grooves are for, yes you'll eat pads slightly quicker but it's not too bad, I run brembo grooved discs with no issues other than the obvious noise...all plain discs with race pads will do this from my experience anyway
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Forgot to keep you posted,
I bought a brand new GT86, had no problems with the stock brakes as far as fading/vibrations, but they really lack bite (require excessive pedal effort), and have excessive pedal travel.
I then bought DS1.11 pads for the front and the back of the GT86 and was a very happy man for a short time... Until they started vibrating when getting hot (after about 5-10 minutes of fast downhills). After stopping the car, the discs had massive deposits, just like in the Clio. And they cleaned each time, with street driving and cold braking.
Swapped them for some cheap stoptech pads, no vibrations, no matter how hot they get.

Just to remind you, I had no problems in the same conditions with the stock clio 172 brakes and DS1.11, but had the exact same issue with the DS1.11 and 197 brembos on the 172 (which was solved by swapping pads, even on the same used discs).
For those who mentioned brake bedding, let me assure you I tried every possible variation you could and couldn't think of :)
The deposits from those pads go away quickly after some cold braking, you can see it on the discs, and new deposits cause vibrations each time.

I've reached for the seller of the pads (someone really reputable here) with the full details, he sent the details to Ferodo, and this is their answer:
I have spoken to Ferodo and they said the DS1.11 is an endurance race pad, what will happen if you run them at much lower temperatures (on the road) they will deposit pad material on the discs and then they will vibrate. They need to be run at sustained high temperature. You will be better with a DS2500 for road use and swap to the 1.11 for track use.

This makes absolutely no sense, as you can see the discs clean of deposits after some cold stops, and it's "general wisdom" everywhere that "race pads" clean deposits when their cold, and only transfer deposits when they're hot (which again, can be seen on the discs after a session).
For now I've given up on these pads as there seems to be no solution.
@npt mentioned slotted rotors might solve this, but there are none for the GT86 where I live. Maybe @LiamPa can try it and let us know?
It really is down to the pad compound. Metallic pads certainly are harder when cold. I'm not so sure about the Ferodo range but certainly running a pad outside its designed operating temperatures heightens the risk of issues. If you are running pretty cold then you are really using the wrong pad.
There are compounds designed for lower braking temperatures.
K.
 

Daniel

ClioSport Moderator
  Whichever has fuel
Halfway through my second track day on DS1.11’s and not a single issue so far. My last day was pre-lockdown.

no bedding in just fitted them and did 3 semi warm laps, in to check pressures and back out full bore.

no brake judder, no squealing, just a proper confidence inspiring pedal.
 


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