Engine seized

[dr16]

Okay so had cambelt and dephaser changed last week. Been driving fine, everything smoother. Only thing was idle not settling for a while, going from 1000 up to around 1700 then back down again til nice and warm.

Left work for my lunch today, just entering a roundabout when...steering goes heavy engine cuts out. So after the police have blocked off entire 4 dual carriageway roundabout, they give me a push down to a nearby bus stop/layby.
Electrics all working, nice amount of petrol but so sign of life. Starter motor trying to turn but failing miserably. Car is now recovered back to the garage that did the work.

Now they claimed to have the correct locking tools. Does this sound like the cambelt was changed incorrectly? I was thinking no, since it had been running okay for 2 or 3 days.

They are stripping it down tomorow, however i still have not paid the entirety of the cambelt work off. Until i know more, i doubt i will do. If this was their fault, they will be rebuilding my engine free of charge by hook or crook.

Please advise, carless man with no way to get to work tomorow.

Thanks

 

[Alastair.]

i reckon bottom pulley has spun up

 

[DrR]

Did a specalist do it, or some random big bobs garage?

 

[dr16]

I wouldnt say theyre a specialist, but they are a good garage. They do body repairs and spraying and the mechanics there have rebuilt old MGs and lotuses. There was no horrible noises when it seized, revs just died and then nothing. Thanks for your replies so far lets keep them coming

ps this may be better off on the faults/solutions board.

 

[MicKPM]

First of all, wait to see what the strip down diagnosis is before going off!

The timing belt work they carried out could turn out to be perfect and if it has actually siezed the engine it's unlikely a timing belt change would have caused this (unless the dephaser pulley seal has been leaking badly and you've allowed it to run dry)

When was the oil level last checked? I assume you take note of the "Check Oil" everytime you start up to?

Mick

 

[dr16]

The oil level has been checked religiously since i bought the car. Had a leak from what was first believed to be rocker cover gasket but later turned out to be cam shaft seals? These were replaced along wiith dephaser + cam belt.
The engine had plenty of oil in it when it seized. Please elaborate on dephaser pulley seal leaking? Thanks

 

[J.W]

Seems strange to me, might be a longshot but failed alternator resulting in the battery being drained and not having the power to run or turn the engine over?

Seized engine would have to be something pretty major, unless the dephaser could be wrongly fitted in a way in which it blocks an oilway?

If the pulley had span I'm sure you'd see rough running, lumpy idle and a nice knock from the valves crashing into the head?

 

[dr16]

does the alternator run off the aux belt?i dont think that was changed, maybe where the oil was leaking and work taking place around it it could have worn & snapped? i guess i will find out for definite tomorow.

 

[Jonny1*2]

does the alternator run off the aux belt?i dont think that was changed, maybe where the oil was leaking and work taking place around it it could have worn & snapped? i guess i will find out for definite tomorow.

Yeah it does. Fingers crossed this isn't too pricey

 

[dr16]

update from garage. everything spinning freely at the top of the engine, mechanic asked me if i want him to continue work to take the sump off and inspect. he suspects big end bearings? can someone clarify what these are, causes for failure, cost of repair etc? thanks

 

[mgoode180566]

sorry to say but if its big end you are looking at a big bill. surely if it was big ends you would have heard something major, did it sound like a diesel ?

if big ends have gone so suddenly then it must have been a catastrophic failure of the oil system. did you have any lights ?



have they taken the head off ?

 

[bmh.01]

update from garage. everything spinning freely at the top of the engine, mechanic asked me if i want him to continue work to take the sump off and inspect. he suspects big end bearings? can someone clarify what these are, causes for failure, cost of repair etc? thanks

They're the bearing on the bottom of the connecting rods where they bolt to the crank. Not many normal reasons why they should fail really, extremely high miles, poor servicing (maybe) or oil starvation (most probably). Sump off and have a poke around it definetly the next port of call. No point taking the head off as the bottom end/engine may be scrap at this point anyway, and its far quicker/cheaper to whip the sump off and also to check the oil pump etc.

 

[dr16]

no lights, checked on rs tuner about a week before, no fault codes, 63000 miles, had an oil leak so oil level has been fluctuating between full and low full and low, but never driven with insufficient oil. plenty of oil in there when it seized as welll. unsure as to whether they will have had the head off because this means new head bolts ?

what work is involved in fixing these bearings then?

 

[sideways danny]

what work is involved in fixing these bearings then?

engine rebuild. If they big end bearings have gone to the extent of causing a seizure, they your crank will be damaged, and you'll have lots of nice metal swarf in the oil gallaries.

I doubt it's that though TBH

 

[rampantreaper]

Sounds to me like garage trying to worm out of it.lol.

 

[dr16]

Sounds to me like garage trying to worm out of it.lol.

on what basis?

When it died on me, there was no noise. The revs just dropped off and the engine seemed to almost stall. Front end didnt dip, and i was in gear. it was as though the fuel or air supply was just suddenly cut off. Obviously since the starter motor would not turn it over this would indicate something more serious? Just spent £1000 on the car having the leak & suspension fixed + new belt and dephaser and now this barely 3 days later.

 

[mgoode180566]

was it losing water ? catastrophic headgasket failure , bores filled with water ?

did the headlights work ? alternator becomes disconnected, battery goes flat, starter wont turn ...........

actually not much will stop a motor turning over. even if the cranked was trying to weld itself to the shells the you would know about it.......

ive seen an astra with a rod poking out the block turn over on the starter, didnt sound nice mind

 

[rampantreaper]

As someone said its not going to be big ends and its odd they suggested it. Seized engines usually low oil related ortiming issues.

 

[dr16]

Crank bearings gone. swarf everywhere. So whos got a second hand engine .. or a shotgun

 

[sideways danny]

for what it's worth, I agree with Ali, and say the bottom pulley has spun. Probably didn't torque it with the correct procedure

 

[rampantreaper]

Get a second opinion. Always good plan.

 

[dr16]

double

 

[davo172]

Thats bad news mate, but you should ALWAYS use a renault specialist to do 1*2 cambelts and pulleys not worth the risk for saving a few quid. how much did they charge you out of intrest ?

 

[Gandi69]

I'm surprised some garages actually attempt this work. I rang a my dads mate to get a quote on doing my belts when I first had the 182 and he said simply wouldnt touch it due to the tools/procedure needed. Took it to a specialist in the end.

 

[mgoode180566]

wow thats nasty. sorry to hear that.

very surprised that you heard nothing before it went. oil related issue ? pump failure ?

 

[dr16]

would the bottom pulley cause this kind of damage then? heard literally nothing.

 

[Alastair.]

would the bottom pulley cause this kind of damage then? heard literally nothing.

yes, if the bottom pulley bolt has not been done up proper then eventualy it will come loose allowing the crank sprocket to spin with the cambelt and the actual crank will not move atall allowing the vavles to mash into the pistons. I reckon this is what has happend. Big ends my arse, you would have known about it, tbh it should still run with a fuked big end. I had a diesel scenic in a few weeks ago with 3 mashed big end shells and it was still running.

 

[mark123]

Have you seen the damage yet?

 

[dr16]

No i have not seen the damage with my own eyes yet when i do maybe i will photograph it if that would help? how will i know if the bottom pulley spun as opposed to these bearings? is there a way i can find out for myself without paying a specialist to examine it and transport it etc.

 

[mark123]

The bearing should be smooth, some small graining is normal. But if it has seized they will be very badly scored it should be obvious. Make sure you look at the crank journals and not some random knackered bearing they produce.

The bottom pulley would not cause that sort of bearing damage.

 

[Fred@BTM]

that'll have 16 seriously bent valves, the mechanic is wasting his time removing the sump, rocker cover needs to come off

 

[dr16]

Fred@BTM the mechanic has told me that there is metal swarf from the bearings visible, but is asking for my permission to strip it down further to inspect the pistons for damage? Not really understanding this fully. If the metal swarf is visible as the mechanic has described, this rules out pulley/cambelt as a cause?
So either the mechanic is lying about the swarf, or the bearings really are at fault. Is this correct?
Will the failure of these bearings cause valve damage?
Really dont know what to do at the moment.

 

[bmh.01]

No but the bottom pulley spinning would do, its a stupid design flaw imo. The question to be asked is that as the engine already sounds to be beyond the point of economical repair at this point is it worth spending more £££ on labour for them to strip it down? It'd probably be cheaper labour wise to just find a replacement engine and get it fitted, this will be a difficult one to pin on the garage I think. (if they're responsible even)

If it were me i'd strip the lot down and see exactly whats what, but i'm not paying for my time.

 

[Fred@BTM]

hang on 5min, i'll get a pic

depends on his definition of swarf (see below)

basically in short, get another engine and don't waste your time fixing the current one

 

[Gandi69]

Bloody hell what happened to that one then? ^^

 

[!big ash!]

gotta aggree it being sliped timing, ive seen it happen 3,4,5 days after having belt kits fitted.
it does sound like they r trying to get out of it, get it the hell out of there an take it to a propper clio sport specialist before they strip it too far for diagnosis,
turn up with a flat bed on there door step dont tell em ur coming, saves them tampering with timing etc to make them look out of blame.

 

[dr16]

Can anyone reccomend a specialist in the home counties area? I plan to call renault about this, i figure i will be able to go back to the garage with what renault say, should they deem this unusual or unlikely. Should i be calling a renault dealer or what? Thanks everyone you've been an absolutely invaluable resource for me