ESP - what does it do

[Munson]

Apart from the obvious.

My Cup now has 4500miles on it and is still getting more urgent by the day. Ive recently been dabbling with a few B-road blasts with the ESP switched off, and surprsingly it feels more than a tiny bit more rapid without it. I find this strange because its not like Im otherwise usually driving mad enough for the ESP to be kicking in...yet the car just feels that bit more rapid with it siwtched off. Not so much straight line speed, but mid corner throttle response and power seems improved.

Am I imagining this??? Does ESP tame down some things in-corner - such as torque (and thus torque steer) and throttle resopnse etc. - as well as do the obvious thing like saving your bacon when youre about to get all crossed up?

 

[CocoPops]

I think it works in that it it "allows" you to use the power until a problem, rather than giving you all of the power until a problem, then reigning it back in.

I think thats why there is a bigger kick at 5k rpm when it is enabled, becuase I think it disables at 5k rpm etc.

 

[Munson]

Not really sure what you mean dude?

 

[TheKing]

ESP helps counteract skidding or ‘breaking away’ (oversteer) by selectively working the ABS braking and Traction Control and also through direct intervention in the engine management system to reduce power. If the vehicle pushes out over the front wheels upon entering a bend at too high a speed, the ESPs integrated anti-traction control will reduce the engine output should the driver keep stepping on the accelerator. If this should not be sufficient, the ESP will brake down the rear wheel on the inside of the bend, allowing the vehicle to turn better into the cornering move. (blantantly copy and pasted

[Edited by TheKing on 05 April 2005 at 5:07pm]

 

[dk]

the lack of urgency when planting the power below 5k is the traction control stopping you from using all power to prevent loss of traction, this is why when you turn esp off ( it also turns traction off) you get a more flat acceleration without as big a kick at 5k.

ESP comes in when you are being an arse and lose control and it steps in to protect you by braking each wheel independantly and controlling power to right the car again.

thats how I understand it.

 

[CocoPops]

hmmm..

Its like me saying "have 5000 pounds" in one go and wait til you crash or me saying "have 5000 pounds" 10 pound at a time until you make a mistake.

that make sense?

 

[Nik]

Youre not imagining it Roy. Ask anyone whos done a track day which is quicker and im sure they will all tell you with it switched off. Acceleration out of corners is much better with it switched off.

Even on a damp and slippery airfield with very bald tyres where the car was understeering all over the place, i still managed my best time by 3 seconds on the run i did with ESP turned off.

 

[Munson]

I thought the 5000rpm kick is simply the cam timing being advanced? Although the hydraulic valve that does this is obviously controlled by the ECU, I didnt know there was any difference with ESP switched on/off?

 

[Grandpa Munster]

If the back end tries to step out (lift off oversteer for example) then esp will try to correct by cutting power and applying brakes to individual wheels to prevent a spin.

I think this is correct, esp has saved me a couple of times.

 

[Munson]

So its like:

Normally when youre mashing the throttle through a set of twisties, the ECU is deciding just how much pedal opening to transfer as throttle opening? Where as with ESP disabled, your right foot isnt being tampered with by the computer? This would defo explain my experinces with ESP switched off. Ergo even more rapid as f**k

DISCLAIMER - DONT BLAME ME IF YOU BEND YOUR CLIO BY SWITCHING OFF YOUR ESP!

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 05 April 2005

I thought the 5000rpm kick is simply the cam timing being advanced? Although the hydraulic valve that does this is obviously controlled by the ECU, I didnt know there was any difference with ESP switched on/off?

the kick is as you describe but if you have esp on it is ore pronounced as the traction control holds full power back until hitting 5k, with it off you have full reign of the power and thus when you reach 5k you already have more power so you will not notice the kick as much.

Give it a try, you will notice the difference, atleast I always do.

 

[Munson]

Ahhh I see cheers. So basically the ESP makes the car slower, but more managable if you drive like Joey Deacon?

 

[Alex_225]

You do realise that if I stack it tonights its coz Ive been switching the ESP off and testing what difference it makes!!!

 

[Toypop]

I am not buying this argument that the ESP is slowing the car down prior to the kick at 5k.

If I time my car on a 30 to 70 run with ESP on and ESP off I doubt it would make any difference. The car is not going spin the wheels at 4k rpm in 2nd gear on a dry tarmac as it doesnt have enough power and torque at those revs, not in a million years! Its not until after the kick or at the point of the kick that you would need the ESP!!! So I would expect the kick to be more noticeable with the ESP switched off and yet you lot are saying the opposite!

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 05 April 2005

Ahhh I see cheers. So basically the ESP makes the car slower, but more managable if you drive like Joey Deacon?

not quite, its the traction control doing the holding back of the power under 5k, the ESP only comes in when you start to lose control, although both are turned off by the same button so you cant have one without the other.

is that better? (I am sh1t at explaining things!)

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by Toypop on 05 April 2005


I am not buying this argument that the ESP is slowing the car down prior to the kick at 5k.

If I time my car on a 30 to 70 run with ESP on and ESP off I doubt it would make any difference. The car is not going spin the wheels at 4k rpm in 2nd gear on a dry tarmac as it doesnt have enough power and torque at those revs, not in a million years! Its not until after the kick or at the point of the kick that you would need the ESP!!! So I would expect the kick to be more noticeable with the ESP switched off and yet you lot are saying the opposite!





try it tonight, standing start 0-about60 with it both on and off, with it off the power delivery will be more smooth and less of a kick, with it on it gives a bigger kick as it is holding back a little up to 5k.

Thats how it is on mine, you can easily tell the difference.

Hell, mine might be shafted, but I thought it was logical personally?

 

[Munson]

Hmmm well it doesnt really matter. Shall we just say the car is faster when the orange triangle is lit up

 

[b0redtodeath]

Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 05 April 2005
Ahhh I see cheers. So basically the ESP makes the car slower, but more managable if you drive like Joey Deacon?

God,theres a name I havent heard for a LONG time

 

[Ben j]

GIRL MODE

 

[Munson]

Electronic Sissy Program?

 

[Toypop]

I know in the wet if I put my foot down in first gear the TC doesnt come in until after the kick and it is very noticeable when the TC starts working. These Clios are gutless before the kick so why would the TC need to be cutting in?


I mean why would ESP work before the kick and the suddenly stop working when all that power and torque comes in?

I will have to experiment a bit with this. In my opinion if the ESP is slowing the car down before the kick it is not because it is stopping the wheels spinning but for some other reason or characteristic brought about by the way the software works.

 

[Munson]

Toypop, Im only saying switching ESP off makes the car faster on a twisty road. I havent noticed any difference in the way the VVT kicks in, certainly not in straight line.

In my limited experience - on a twisty bumpy snakey lane, the car is quicker without ESP...albeit probably about 30% more likely to end up upside down in Farmer Giles field

 

[Munson]

...who owns my private test track http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pip_taylor/images/emoticons/suspect.gif

 

[Toypop]

Oh yeah can definitely imagine it being quicker coming off of roundabouts with ESP off as you are accelerating whilst turning. It really holds the car back and yet you can feel that if it wasnt kicking in the car would be able to go quicker.

But yeah I dont see it making a difference on a dead straight 30 to 70.

 

[Munson]

With ESP switched off, a 182 might be almost as quick as a Cup with it switched on

 

[edgerfs]

Imagine stacking it after youve disabled the ESP though, how gutted would you be!

With me I dont often notice the ESP come on and when it occasionally does its usally when Im coming round a corner too fast.

Are you sure your not refering to a "placebo" effect where the car feels faster cos you know your taking a bigger risk by disabling the ESP?

 

[bsimmer3000]

when ya traction control comes on you know about it as your power drops of for about 1-2 secs then comes back on again slowly. so i my self cant see that on a 0-60 run having it on or off makes any difference. unless of course you plant your foot and drop ya clutch. then ya traction control will come on.

 

[andy_leitch]

My golf is more throwable (still not very throwable) with the esp off. Its faster because of this. even when the light doesnt flash i can tell that its holding back.

 

[edgerfs]

Basically then it strikes me turning off ESP on a track is the best thing beacuse u normally have a nice wide area to spin in and your not gonna hit anything.

On a narrow country lane though turning it off is, IMO, just too much of a risk.

 

[dk]

ok, guys, the ones that think esp being o doesnt make a difference 0-60,

a. have you been to pod and tried it?
b. why do all magazine test the 0-60 with the esp off?

all you need to do to see what I am talking about is to go out in the car and try accelerating very fast from a standstill and feeling the difference the kick is at 5k with and without esp button on.

then you will understand what I mean, all this is theory until you go out there and try it.

It will be more repsonsive round bends with it off as has been said, there is nothing there to cut the power but the same as it cuts the power going around corners too fast, it also does the same when accelerating very fast from a low speed to also prevent the loss of traction.

Isnt there anybody else on here that can see where I am coming from please???????

 

[dk]

Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 05 April 2005
With ESP switched off, a 182 might be almost as quick as a Cup with it switched on




and as far as this comment goes Mr Munson, why dont you get yourself booked on the Brands RS trackday and show us how you drive your cheap 182, you obviously have some fun in it!

 

[telford_mike]

Why dont they fit it to performance cars like the V6?

 

[dk]

i guess that as its a rear wheel drive with better weight distribution and is likely to be someones track car they feel it doesnt need it maybe?

or maybe they didnt want to spend the money re-engineering it for the rear wheel drive on 1 car in the range?

I have no idea Mike!

 

[Tom]

Esp is sh*t.

182 esp was programmed buy the lovechild of mary whitehouse and bungle.

sh*t sh*t sh*t.

Turn it off.

 

[MarkCup]

I had the Ford version on my Mondeo and it was noticeable how much it got in the way if I ever forgot to turn it off.

Theres roundabouts passing Chichester that are badly "dished" like a little ramp as you exit left. With TC enabled, it would ease off and brake for you as you went over it, even though the front wasnt moving out enough to be any trouble.

Without it on, the wheels chirp, and you carry on at the same speed. So...does ESP slow the car down;

Getting off the line? Yes, definitely.

Once rolling and beyond the point of spinning? No difference at all.

While getting a little out of shape at sane speeds on empty clear-sighted roads? YES! Its a pain in the arse.


[Edited by MarkCup on 05 April 2005 at 7:34pm]

 

[Ally]

Am I the only one whos a sissy? Ive never turned my ESP off (well, only once, to see what would happen when I mashed the accelerator from rest ).

Im not kidding myself and saying Im a great driver - I doubt if Id notice much difference in everyday driving by switching it off. And I aint about to try - I value myself too much.

P.S. I do get the wee red triangle lighting up relatively frequently (mainly cresting summits) so I cant drive like a total granny!

 

[blink172]

Quote: Originally posted by Tom on 05 April 2005Esp is sh*t. 182 esp was programmed buy the lovechild of mary whitehouse and bungle.sh*t sh*t sh*t.Turn it off.


That pretty much sums it up.

With it on, the car really does hesitate at low revs in corners. Turn if off at every chance you get, it will be like a performance mod

 

[Tom]

To be 100% honest here.

the 182 has scared me twice. both times were down to the esp sticking the rear brakes on for "no" reason.

1st time was in a car park at a cs meet (it was wet but nothing major and i was doing 20mph) Caused me to spin!!

2nd time was on a roundabout, again rear brakes were used.

I hate it. did i mention it was sh*t?

 

[Munson]

Quote: Originally posted by dave182 on 05 April 2005
Quote: Originally posted by Roy Munson on 05 April 2005With ESP switched off, a 182 might be almost as quick as a Cup with it switched on




and as far as this comment goes Mr Munson, why dont you get yourself booked on the Brands RS trackday and show us how you drive your cheap 182, you obviously have some fun in it!




Hehe yeah I do have fun it mate, but I have a feeling Id drive like a r****d on a track. I do still want to get booked on a track day, but cash is a bit tight at the moment.

 

[badinvincible]

Quote: Originally posted by telford_mike on 05 April 2005

Why dont they fit it to performance cars like the V6?

Or Mk1 172s...?