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Exhaust flow question/puzzle



KDF

  Audi TT Stronic


I would imagine pipe one would be more restrictive, because of the interruption to the air flow, the bits sticking out would cause turbulance, acting like a bottleneck.
 


how long til BenR replies? ;)

id go with the 45mm straight tube, as there is going to be less disturbance to the flow. Done this at college a while back, it involved calculations using Bernoulis law, about turbulant and laminar flow, if i remember al get another post up here.
 


its n/a

cheers red

im thinking pipe 1 would offer high velocity and little resistance to flow backpressuremailto:flow@backpressure ">

but it gets so damn complicated

i want ben to answer but im thinking he may confuse the hell out of me when doing so lol
 
  Lionel Richie


Pipe 1 would create a higher level of backpressure i would say, when the gas hits the "bottleneck" the pressure will increase bit like a jet engine or a high pressure jet hose

IMO id go for pipe 1 (if your talking exhausts!!!) pipe 2 would lose you power again IMO
 


hmmmm........nice choice of discussion!!!

Its not something ive ever thought of looking at before, and all we can apply are 2 stroke tuning theory and the basics of pulse tuning.

pipe 2 should flow more than pipe 1 since flow at any pressure is directly related to oriface size. But pipe 2 has constant laminar flow with no pressure changes and risks of flow separation and changes in skin friction.

There is no way i can offer a definite answer as my understandings of such aerodynamic, flow boundary theory is too limited to actually propose a credible theory. lol

But as far as i see it you have several problems with flat faced restrictor plates. Firstly is the effects on pure flow. As flow reaches a restriction is passes through, increase speed and experiences a pressure drop, a venturi effect based on Bernoullis principals. The area directly behind the hole would be low pressure and the area directly in teh middle of the hole would be of higher pressure due to poor flow entry profiles. With a simple open oriface with no taper or ram profile the gas flows around the edge and due to the compressability of gasses it makes a higher pressure centre of the hole which reduces flow. You will get flow separation (creating many random and detrimental flow pattern changes and pressure changes) behind the restriction forming turbulent boundary flow and eddies under the boundary surface, youll have a much broader velocity profile and the boundary layer thicknes will incrase, then continuing with high sheer stressses before the nxt restriciton depending on length and time to settle.

Then we have to take into account the pulse nature of exhaust gas motion, where slugs travel along the path. The slug is formed of a hig pressure head, and ambient pressure centre and a below ambient pressue area at the rear, which the nxt high pressure head of the next slug follows. This will greatly affect flow patterns through the hole and the speed/temp/viscosity will affect the random nature of eddies behind the restriction. And being random we cant predict it (yet....if ever lol).

Then along with exhasut gas pulses you get pressure waves which travel at the speed of sound through the exhasut system. Speed of sound varies with temperature and density. These pressure waves will be reflected by the edge of the restriction and head back up the system to the exhasut valves and cylinders and can severely mess up exhasut tuning. The wave will be a an exact positive reflection. However, part of the wave will pass through the oriface and the nature of these waves and pulse tuning you get a negative refraction and sign change due to the change in crossectional area. This again will head up the exhasut system to the cylinder. And due to the minimal section change the wave sign is hard to predice where an exact negative sign would be the result of an infinate and instant crossectional change (tube to atmosphere essentially) and tuners take this into account as its more predictable. You will get odd pressure and pulse waves returning to the cylinder and some might help scavenge, some might push fresh charge back out the inlet o overlap, who knows what will happen.

A million and one otehr things will be going on and i really dont have the brain beans to think about it all now lol, or ever.

Sure, this all applies to a high budget tuned engine where every last factor is taken into account, but manufactueres spend ALOT of time getting this sort of stuff to the right compramise as std........and i personally cant see it helping your engine in any particular way.

Put simply, performance engines dont want to see a back pressure, its not needed, its an old theory applied to mainly carbed cars where the benefit can be seen (just).....back pressure, jsut get rid of it.

pipe 2.....theres less to think about lol!
 


there is no right answer as no exhaust pipe suits the whole rev range of a car, you are always looking for the best compromise, cause a certain pipe will assist scavenging (exhaust pulses tail end of low compression helps draw more mixture into combustion chamber when cam/s is on overlapping) at one engine speed, but will likely rob it at others (a high pressure return wave impedes flow through chamber). You get a similar problem with intake trumpets, as you get pressure waves here also, at some engine speeds they assist and at some they dont (which is why you can get flashes out of intake and fuel going on windscreen, with some throttle body systems - bit of a fire rsik but fun). So you cant really say which of the above 2 pipes is the best, as they have to be judged in conjunction with the application or engine they are to be used in. Also BenR right there are far to many factors that affects this, which cannot be accounted for without testing, which is probably why exhausts are so bloody expensive considering
 

KDF

  Audi TT Stronic


Quote: Originally posted by weight on 11 December 2003
but it gets so damn complicatedi want ben to answer but im thinking he may confuse the hell out of me when doing so lol


Hey you were right.. he did.
 


Quote: Originally posted by weight on 11 December 2003


its n/a

cheers red

im thinking pipe 1 would offer high velocity and little resistance to flow backpressuremailto:flow@backpressure ">

but it gets so damn complicated

i want ben to answer but im thinking he may confuse the hell out of me when doing so lol
lol i meant pipe 2 would be best imo

told u i was getting confused lol

Alex - i agree with the scavanging point

Ben - i got the jist thanks

ok, ive already gone for pipe 2, but my worry was, is it going to cause a restriction to flow only being 45mm, but it seems to be fine. And it gets damn hot which will also help flow IMO

i now have an exhaust with ZERO silencers and no cat other than a standard back box, (which will get swopped for a straight thro for 1/4 miling, as i couldnt live with the noise everyday)

oh, those restrictions in pipe 1 are the entry and exit to the middle box on a standard middle section, the pipe tapers into it, which i thought was a bit crappy.

thanks for ur help, but i had kinda already decided:D
 


that was my worry, i hear a 3" zorst will flow about 3/400 hp but i cant find a figure on a 2" zorst (or say a 45mm)

what i need to know is will it cause a problem having a 45mm zorst and say 160/170 hp?

its a difficult question to answer i know.
 


the 130 odd bhp minis use 2" systems.

I really would stick with a low back pressure, or nill back pressure system.
 
  172 cup,s2 rs turbo


dont you need a slight bit of back pressure to help engine running/improve performance?(eg-to help stop a waste of inlet gases due to them escaping down the exhaust valve when valve overlap occurs-not really apllicable to new engines due to emission laws preventing them from using a lot/if any valve overlap these days).Or is that just a myth?
 


backpressure is totally uneccesary.

Accurate tuning of pulse and pressure waves is far more beneficial.
 
  172 cup,s2 rs turbo


I can remember when i had an old mk2 escort rs2000 which was quite quick.when the manifold snapped it instantly went flat/lost power,you could tell straight away.maybe back pressure was more important on these older engines than it is now.What do you think?
 
  172 cup,s2 rs turbo


Quote: Originally posted by BenR on 12 December 2003


it is, but a manifold snapping really affects more than backpressure.
it was a clean break so put the exhaust gases straight to atmosphere so no restriction whatsoever and no back pressure.what else would the snapped manifold affect?
 
  172 cup,s2 rs turbo


Quote: Originally posted by jonnyboy on 12 December 2003

Ill be the first to say that you guys really do need to get out more.
i think your right but it is so cold! never mind ill just sit inside and type waffle.
 


am i right in saying its the manifold and downpipe thats the important bit, this is where all the pulse timings are done?

as we come from the downpipe we just just want shot of the gas ASAP dont we?

the 45mm zorst which i have on atm SEEMS fine, but im worried that the internal pipe area is significantly less than a 2" pipe (2" pipe being fine in terms of diameter for 160/170 hp afaik)

44.9mm dia pipe is 25% smaller than 49mm one if calcs are correct.

i cant find anything on the net at all, quoting acceptable diameters vs power

maybe i need a new exhaust? lol magnex is nice

or maybe i should get it RRd and compare it to the graph when i had my ktec on?

il sleep on it hehe!

cheers
 


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