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FAO Carbon copy - discussion on cable vs. Fly By Wire Throttle
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Re: FAO Carbon copy
:S I drove it all the way back from Kent and tbh I was glad to get back into my 182 so much easier on the legs .. but maybe that cause im a girl
Cable is deffo better than FBW!!!!
I have seen the light....
i'll second that... the biggest thing i miss from my old 172 is the throttle response!
:S I drove it all the way back from Kent and tbh I was glad to get back into my 182 so much easier on the legs .. but maybe that cause im a girl
BMW Z4 3.0i
Re: FAO Carbon copy
He's talking about changing the method of controlling the acceleration of the car. The ph1 accelerator pedal was connected directly to the engine by a cable. The ph2 is connected to some electrical wizardry (a potentiometer I think) that works with the computer to tell the engine how fast to accelerate.
Some people believe the cable method is more responsive.
I've never driven a ph1 myself but I am also sceptical. I don't know how many times the ecu in a ph2 cycles or whatever but I'd be surprised if it's slow enough for a human to notice the difference.
He's talking about changing the method of controlling the acceleration of the car. The ph1 accelerator pedal was connected directly to the engine by a cable. The ph2 is connected to some electrical wizardry (a potentiometer I think) that works with the computer to tell the engine how fast to accelerate.
Some people believe the cable method is more responsive.
I've never driven a ph1 myself but I am also sceptical. I don't know how many times the ecu in a ph2 cycles or whatever but I'd be surprised if it's slow enough for a human to notice the difference.
Re: FAO Carbon copy
trust me, you can notice the difference.
love the way the thread is addressed to Chris and he hasnt even replied in here yet! lol
trust me, you can notice the difference.
love the way the thread is addressed to Chris and he hasnt even replied in here yet! lol
Re: FAO Carbon copy
This thread has been in just about every forum!!! lol@ the mods.
in the past ive had a 172/182 both fbw (electric throttle), now having a ph-1quick it has cable. Back in the old school days me and chris always used to argue (jokingly) about which was best.... but now we sit on othersides of the fence.. lol
rararararaara
There was a big discussion about it...
This thread has been in just about every forum!!! lol@ the mods.
in the past ive had a 172/182 both fbw (electric throttle), now having a ph-1quick it has cable. Back in the old school days me and chris always used to argue (jokingly) about which was best.... but now we sit on othersides of the fence.. lol
...... Wait a minute, whats ad doing with another Renault?!
He's always slagging them off lol, we've had many discussions in other marques.
They always come crawling back
rararararaara
There was a big discussion about it...
Darren S
ClioSport Club Member
Ah, is this why the throttle response at times seems a bit 'flat' when I blip the throttle on downshifts?
It almost feels like the pedal and engine aren't quite in agreeance!
D.
It almost feels like the pedal and engine aren't quite in agreeance!
D.
The technical advantage of fly-by-wire is that it allows traction control by simply reducing the throttle opening from what you right foot is asking for. That's healthier for the engine and the emissions than the alternative of killing the ignition or cutting the fueling. And it makes cruise control possible.
But any simple FBW is by definition going to have what in the computer field is called "latency". Ie, action requested does not occur immediately. With a cable throttle the butterfly opens as you press the pedal. But with an electronic throttle the computer periodically reads the position of the throttle and after it sees you've moved the pedal to a new position it sends a command to the stepper motor in the throttle body telling it to open, so there's an inherent delay.
But what an electronic throttle can do that a dumb throttle cable can't do is be intelligent. To try to anticipate what you're intending to do. The same as "brake assist" does on a lot of new cars. It detects that you've pushed the brake pedal hard, so it must be an emergency braking maneouvre, so it immediately gives you maximum braking. A similar facility on the throttle side could do the same, detect you pressed the accelerator hard, and not wait to detect that your foot to push the pedal all the way to the floor before it sent the appropriate message to the stepper motor in the throttle body to open the throttle all the way. It might only save you a couple of tenths of a second in acceleration times, but it takes a lot of extra horsepower to achieve the same result.
So its possible for an electronic throttle to be better than a cable throttle by being intelligent and anticipating what you want. But Renault's isn't.
But any simple FBW is by definition going to have what in the computer field is called "latency". Ie, action requested does not occur immediately. With a cable throttle the butterfly opens as you press the pedal. But with an electronic throttle the computer periodically reads the position of the throttle and after it sees you've moved the pedal to a new position it sends a command to the stepper motor in the throttle body telling it to open, so there's an inherent delay.
But what an electronic throttle can do that a dumb throttle cable can't do is be intelligent. To try to anticipate what you're intending to do. The same as "brake assist" does on a lot of new cars. It detects that you've pushed the brake pedal hard, so it must be an emergency braking maneouvre, so it immediately gives you maximum braking. A similar facility on the throttle side could do the same, detect you pressed the accelerator hard, and not wait to detect that your foot to push the pedal all the way to the floor before it sent the appropriate message to the stepper motor in the throttle body to open the throttle all the way. It might only save you a couple of tenths of a second in acceleration times, but it takes a lot of extra horsepower to achieve the same result.
So its possible for an electronic throttle to be better than a cable throttle by being intelligent and anticipating what you want. But Renault's isn't.
In case anyone who doesn't know what it is is wondering why its called "fly by wire", its that it came from the aircraft industry. Planes used to have direct linkages between the cockpit controls and the control surfaces on the wings and the tail. Then they moved to hydraulics, like hydraulic brakes, with the problem that if your engines stopped you had no hydraulic pressure so you couldn't even try to glide to a safe landing. But modern aircraft now have a computer reading the positions of the cockpit controls and sending the appropriate commands to hydraulic and/or electric motors that push the control surfaces to the appropriate positions. That allows the computer to make the cockpit controls more or less sensitive depending on speed, and it allows the computer to interfere if it thinks the pilot has done something stupid that will crash the plane. This has undoubtedly prevented some planes from crashing, but in one notorious incident it resulted in an Airbus crashing because the programming of the computer resulted in the plane over-riding the pilot in a circumstance where what the pilot tried to do would have gotten the plane out of trouble.
The first they put into cars was an electronic throttle. TBW - throttle by wire. If it breaks the worse that can happen is that you're stuck on the side of the road. They tell you its to allow cruise control, but its thinking ahead to makes speed control possible too. You won't be able to exceed the speed limit, the car won't let you. You won't be able to not slow down for the corner, or the roadworks, or the pedestrian crossing, the car will force you to.
The next thing is electronic brakes. BBW - brake by wire. That starts getting scary. What if it fails and the brakes fail to get your foot's instruction that you want or need to stop. Maybe we need radar collision prevention before we do that one. The one after that is electronic steering. SBW - steer by wire. That way its easy to engineer left and right-hand drive, and there's no need for a collapsing steering column, and they can make it adjustable. And they can have the radar avoiding crashes. And they can completely take away control of the car from the driver and put it in the hands of computers that will never crash. You believe they can program computers so they do a better job of driving your car than you can, don't you? They do.
The first they put into cars was an electronic throttle. TBW - throttle by wire. If it breaks the worse that can happen is that you're stuck on the side of the road. They tell you its to allow cruise control, but its thinking ahead to makes speed control possible too. You won't be able to exceed the speed limit, the car won't let you. You won't be able to not slow down for the corner, or the roadworks, or the pedestrian crossing, the car will force you to.
The next thing is electronic brakes. BBW - brake by wire. That starts getting scary. What if it fails and the brakes fail to get your foot's instruction that you want or need to stop. Maybe we need radar collision prevention before we do that one. The one after that is electronic steering. SBW - steer by wire. That way its easy to engineer left and right-hand drive, and there's no need for a collapsing steering column, and they can make it adjustable. And they can have the radar avoiding crashes. And they can completely take away control of the car from the driver and put it in the hands of computers that will never crash. You believe they can program computers so they do a better job of driving your car than you can, don't you? They do.
I had my 182 converted to cable throttle. It definately makes a big difference to throttle response and in turn performance.
I think matty w got his done by Hillpower using a Renault conversion kit so keeping stock ECU. Would definately be a worhtwhile modification for 172/182 owners IMO.
I think matty w got his done by Hillpower using a Renault conversion kit so keeping stock ECU. Would definately be a worhtwhile modification for 172/182 owners IMO.
yeah i've got mine done theres definatly a difference,i think the fly by wire is also to do with emmissions when you floor the pedal the throttle doesnt instantly open fully
Lots of Alfas
i know its not up with the 2.0l big guns, but my 1.2 is s**t. i have to floor the pedal to get any response on down changes. and i swear the car just doesnt keep up with my gear changes either
jamie
The 1.2 has the same problem, the mk2ph1s were better because they were cable. I know a driving instructor that purposely bought a mkph1 because people kept stalling the ph2 as it was unresponsive. The throttle is also too light to know exactly if your pressing down on it and by how much.
MarkCup
ClioSport Club Member
I've got to try a Ph-Q to see what all this is about.
My Cup responds instantly, at the slightest (and I mean slightest) movement of my foot.
Anyone taking a Ph-Q to Brands I can have a go in?
My Cup responds instantly, at the slightest (and I mean slightest) movement of my foot.
Anyone taking a Ph-Q to Brands I can have a go in?
i know its not up with the 2.0l big guns, but my 1.2 is s**t. i have to floor the pedal to get any response on down changes. and i swear the car just doesnt keep up with my gear changes either
jamie
The 1.2 has the same problem, the mk2ph1s were better because they were cable. I know a driving instructor that purposely bought a mkph1 because people kept stalling the ph2 as it was unresponsive. The throttle is also too light to know exactly if your pressing down on it and by how much.
I stalled the Ph-Q 3 times because of the stupid cable
lol
M
mini-valver
Its for emissions from what I've read, Stops the butterfly being fully open when at low engine speeds, burning more fuel so more CO2 etc.
I'll be converting to cable eventually, much better IMO. The car does what you want it to not some anal, restrictive computer......
I'll be converting to cable eventually, much better IMO. The car does what you want it to not some anal, restrictive computer......
Agreed.
Certainly mine does when 'in gear' - The throttle response is pin sharp imho....... but I feel I have to labour the blip of the throttle a little more when heel and toeing. If I very quickly and lightly tap my pedal nothing happens. lol.
Having said that, mine seems to improved since supposedly resetting the ECU.
Yes and yes
