few problems just had my car itb'd

[mattatmtech]

theirs was on omex mate.


and meant guessing the low end map and only doing a 'power' map


at a proper mappers, the at the fly figure figure was about 2 bhp higher than the wheels figure when done properly.

Sorry but the above makes no SENSE! The mapping cant change the ratio between fly and wheel, thats the dynos SAE guess work!

In terms of mapping, the reason we went DD was so we could steady state accross the entire rev range, not just powr mapping as you say.... yes blame the mapping, oh, the cam timing is out.....

I assumed (silly of me in retrospect) that the uprated cams were fitted by a comptentant person, and not be so far out....

On the plus side, will be mapping it in about 20 minutes, so we will see what power we make

 

[PaulyA610]

Glad to see you are getting it sorted matt, nick is feeling well happy now you (and help from sideways danny) have sused the problems. I am a bit suprised you didnt think something was up with it before you started this job as it was the slowest 172 i have ever drove before, especialy as you recently had another 172 in recently!!! Lets hope it get's the propper bhp figers now as i cant wait to have a go in it when it is done.

 

[mattatmtech]

We weere never told it was slow when he drop;ped it in, otherwise I would been asking questions!

Anyway... riddle me this...

The car now makes 136bhp, and the exact same curve with or withought VVT soplenoid being powered.

Somethings wrong here, and we are not renault experts. Any ideas?

All help welcome and appreciasted. AFRS are good at around 13.5, MBT is around 34* ish BTDC. Cam timing is confirmed by Danny as spot on. My insticts: VVT system not functioning as it should (obviously). Is this common?

Cheers,
Matt

 

[Fred@BTM]

you've definatley got 12V going to the solenoid thingy? when's it being turned on?

compression tested it?

got full throttle?

running on 4?

(yes some daft questions, not meant to insult)

 

[Russ_16v]

Was going to say check comps, valve could have touched due to the timing being out?

 

[Cro]

First thing I would have been worried about would have been valves with the timing out, especially seeing as its been given the beans a few times

 

[mattatmtech]

Yes its def getting 12v as its drawing current (we arent that bad lol!)

Will check compr. Remember it was making 183 with the time all out, my guess is it was advanced when out, and the VVt has stopped working, will C/T it now

 

[Russ_16v]

Hmmm, it sounds proper weird, whats the graphs look like Matt? Does the power delivery look good just low, or is it all over the place?

 

[Nick r26r]

We weere never told it was slow when he drop;ped it in, otherwise I would been asking questions!

Anyway... riddle me this...

The car now makes 136bhp, and the exact same curve with or withought VVT soplenoid being powered.

Somethings wrong here, and we are not renault experts. Any ideas?

All help welcome and appreciasted. AFRS are good at around 13.5, MBT is around 34* ish BTDC. Cam timing is confirmed by Danny as spot on. My insticts: VVT system not functioning as it should (obviously). Is this common?

Cheers,
Matt

the car wasnt slow , i wouldnt of dropped it of to you if i thought it had problems , it couldnt of been that slow if it almost kept up with a mates 205 gti 6 engined car completely stripped out ,

 

[Cro]

It was your mate said it was slow Nick, not matt

 

[mattatmtech]

Thats what I thought Nick, was just confused as Paul said he thought it was the slowest Clio ever before we took it on!

Anyway, Comps look ok, up around 200psi, pretty much even so no valve damage.

Timing wise...

Now one thing we do know is Zetecs, and when fitting Kent cams to them, the factory settings are no good as when they are ground, they are not lined up anyway, hence we usually use a DTI and set valve lift ATDC/BTDC in mm. Thats for Kents on a Zetec. Clios *may* just be a simple fitment of uprated cams fitting to the standard OEM locking points, however, judging from todays results, maybe not. Danny would know more about this, any ideas Dan?

Torque is as always lovely and smooth, although only around 130lbs/ft.

I will try advancing the ignition timing up, but as I said, VVT on, or off, there is no change to the graph (and certainly no change in the AFR which would indicate the VE is not changine, hence, the cam is not moving. Thats my logical mapping deduction that I would apply to any other engine/mapping task.

The idle is alot smoother now. Perhaps when the VVt kicks in we will see 190+bhp. Remember we have only altered cam timing and lost power.

Ah... thought whilst writing...

The cams were advanced, lets say 12*, and the VVT has never worked (dud unit perhaps) hence we were making good 'VVT'-ish powerm, but not quite the fuill 16* hence full 200bhp.

The idle was choppy before, now we have reverted cams to standard, we are making VVT-less power (The Zetec ST170 makes around 130bhp with no VVT, and 195 with VVT on TBs, so we have seen it before, VVT can make big differences) but the idle is lovely, hence VVT may of never worked at all (dud unit) and with the cams now set correctly and no VVT we are not seeing the resultsd we should, we are seeing a perfect 'economy' map with a retarded cam....

Matt

Matt

 

[mattatmtech]

I thought Paul was Nicks mate, I dont know him off of here I dont believe, and he said he drove the car before????

 

[mattatmtech]

Cro-Clio, yeh exactly what I thought?

 

[Cro]

Bound to be a way of checking the vvt solenoid matt?

 

[mattatmtech]

On the ST yes you remove it. Sometimes they do get gunked up, you leave them in parrifin over night and it clears it usually. From experience anyone: can you audibly hear the clcik when applying 12v (Engine off obviosuly)?

On this one we can't (on the ST and Puma engines you can, sounds like an injector).......

It may seem like I am asking/stating the obvious, but sometimes thats the best way to find a solution, and for some reason I think I will be a Clio TB'ing expert by the end of this one!

 

[Nick r26r]

the vvt must of worked as it would of been lumpy down low but revved very freely before bodies were put on it , was very instant power down low just not much high end , ignore paul and his comments ...

 

[Cro]

Would be worthwhile finding someone with an rstuner local to check the vvt actuator unless someone knows a way to test it mechanically. It might click or something on the turn of ignition?

If its got that part of the loom still attached I think its a pink wire, pin 37 your looking for

 

[mattatmtech]

Cro,

We are putting 12v directly to it, no click. Nick the graph of how the car came in would say that the car performed very badly?

Matt

 

[mattatmtech]

the vvt must of worked as it would of been lumpy down low but revved very freely before bodies were put on it , was very instant power down low just not much high end , ignore paul and his comments ...

With the VVT off the low down would be ncie and smooth, as per a normal cam profile....

 

[Nick r26r]

Cro,

We are putting 12v directly to it, no click. Nick the graph of how the car came in would say that the car performed very badly?

Matt

due to cam timing being out ?? you said the previous clio that came in and had v4 fitted got similar results so how is it running badly ???

 

[Adey.]

was very instant power down low just not much high end , ignore paul and his comments ...

dnt wana be a dick bud but after giving your car a fair few laps i did say the whole car felt very flat on not free reving under load, mind i did give the other lads a run for there money on track in it ;-p im sure the problem will be rectified but there must be something wrong if its now making less power.

matt when you say you might try some more advance do you not map with det cans? ud be able to start adding your timing on and be able to sus out how far you can go and if its starts to knock back it off a little?

 

[delcbr]

Matt the vtech isnt the same as other cars it only works around idle speed it changes over at 1500rpm its not a performance vvt its for emissions only becasue the 2 litre clios are fitted with hot cams as standard the emissions and idle were bad so renault employed vvt the switchover is 1500rpm.so your looking for something thats not there!!! its not performance related!!!
chancers!

 

[Nick r26r]

dnt wana be a dick bud but after giving your car a fair few laps i did say the whole car felt very flat on not free reving under load, mind i did give the other lads a run for there money on track in it ;-p im sure the problem will be rectified but there must be something wrong if its now making less power.

matt when you say you might try some more advance do you not map with det cans? ud be able to start adding your timing on and be able to sus out how far you can go and if its starts to knock back it off a little?

50bhp less , gotta be something wrong for sure !!! car would of felt slow as cams were not timed right (way out as andy said)?? they now are and it is making 50bhp less than last time ??

 

[Adey.]

yeah i know, proper odd, thats why i asked about the way they were setting up the ignition timing

 

[Nick r26r]

Cro,

We are putting 12v directly to it, no click. Nick the graph of how the car came in would say that the car performed very badly?

Matt

of your website matt ,

As can be seen, Nicks car is producing just under 160bhp. Although low for a '172', its the common figures we expect to see from this engine. With management alone we can get it up to over 170bhp, but we're after some real NA Power here, hence Nick wanting to go for Jenveys

your the tuners !! the car shouldnt of had throttle bodies fitted if you thought it was underpowered or not running right regardless if your renault or ford specialists ??? but instead they were and now it is having problems , are you sure its not your ecu causing these problems matt ?? only asking as ever since the ecu has been on it has had problems with not running right !!

 

[PaulyA610]

I am probbably being unfair as the clios i have driven where ph1's and were all modified more than nick's (ITBed) it ran smoothly but did not feel as fast as mine which is totaly stripped out (ph1's are always quicker LOL) and nick has that cage and more of the interior left!!
But any way how has it gone from 182bhp to 136bhp with the timing sorted shourley it should be more now!! Shorly cant be anything major as it seemed to bee pulling well at top end when you mapped it first time. Nick has a spare engine you could get a VVT solinod from that.

 

[mattatmtech]

due to cam timing being out ?? you said the previous clio that came in and had v4 fitted got similar results so how is it running badly ???

Nick,

The torque graph was all over the place, an OEM car should be smooth and steady generally. It may of felt different on the road however...

 

[PaulyA610]

of your website matt ,

As can be seen, Nicks car is producing just under 160bhp. Although low for a '172', its the common figures we expect to see from this engine. With management alone we can get it up to over 170bhp, but we're after some real NA Power here, hence Nick wanting to go for Jenveys

your the tuners !! the car shouldnt of had throttle bodies fitted if you thought it was underpowered or not running right regardless if your renault or ford specialists ??? but instead they were and now it is having problems , are you sure its not your ecu causing these problems matt ?? only asking as ever since the ecu has been on it has had problems with not running right !!

Well said that man, When ever i have had any of my VAG car's and yours for that matter nick, they always have a health check before mapping which saves this type of problem happening!! But it's got worse since it came back !!! Cant you put the car back standard and see how it runs. Nick has a spare engine loom shouldnt take that long.

 

[Nick r26r]

the engine loom is cut paul

 

[mattatmtech]

Nick, an ECU is an ECU, if it can deliver different amount of fuel and different spark advance dependant on load and speed then its fine. A rough torque curve would indicate something to worry about, rest assured it is NOT the ECU.

As I say on the site, it is the commonish figure for Clio 160ish. The graph wasnt perfect but I put that down to uprated cams on standard management.

I think he cams need to be set with a DTI to the specs of the camshaft supplier. Thats the only way fo assuring best results.

In terms of mapping ignition advance, yes det-cans, but also we can see on the dyno before knock is even encoutered the tractive effort begins to plateu.

It simply ahs to be cam timing still. We have moved the cams and even onthe same map it has dropped 50bhp.

I believe sotck timing marks are incorrect for this vairant of cam, but Danny would know for definate.

Matt

 

[mattatmtech]

But any way how has it gone from 182bhp to 136bhp with the timing sorted shourley it should be more now!! Shorly cant be anything major as it seemed to bee pulling well at top end when you mapped it first time. Nick has a spare engine you could get a VVT solinod from that.

Paul exactly, the cam triming needs to be set by a DTI.... (thats how we usually do uprated cams!) as the stock cam locking marks must be wrong for these cams. (Same as Kent cams on a Zetec)

The VVT solednoid avticavted ior deactiavted does nit change the graoh, for soemthign adding 16* of advance, I would expect a differnt AFR!

 

[PaulyA610]

I got a loom you can use bud.

 

[mattatmtech]

your the tuners !! the car shouldnt of had throttle bodies fitted if you thought it was underpowered or not running right regardless if your renault or ford specialists ??? but instead they were and now it is having problems , are you sure its not your ecu causing these problems matt ?? only asking as ever since the ecu has been on it has had problems with not running right !!

Nick,

Sorry but this should read as:

The car as matt said was making the power they have seen from other clios.

After fitting your ECU you smoothed out the torque curve and added 30bhp, so your ECU works brilliantly.

That is what I would make of things so far....

Matt

 

[mattatmtech]

We have improved the car, got it up to over 180bhp. The cam timing has been changed and now it is 130bhp. I am sure when Danny confirms if the cams are set up under usualy locking tools (which he did) or if they need to be setup via DTI and Valve Lift.

What are the exact specs of the cams and suppliers, I will contact them and get the cam data sent over to us, may be a good way of starting, or has anyone got a copy they can post?

Matt

 

[Adey.]

http://www.catcams.be/800x600/mainframe.htm?english

 

[drhowser]

http://www.catcams.be/800x600/mainframe.htm?english

428's was it?

Matt, I think they use the standard timing, but I'm not 100%

Good to see that you seem to be making a real effort to get this sorted!

 

[mattatmtech]

yes 428s, thanks chaps.

Just spoke to Nick, like I told him, we'll get there, its just learning about a new breed of engine.

General mapping principles (all engines are just burning fuel at the right time, ie the same really) would tell me wither cam timing is off or VVT is not working as it should.

Matt

 

[2 live]

eh? come again? :S

when the car went in vs when the car came out. thats the diff a decent map made.

went in at 250 at the fly/223(iirc) at the wheels.....came out with 243 (iirc) at the wheels. 270 odd at the fly

Sorry but the above makes no SENSE! The mapping cant change the ratio between fly and wheel, thats the dynos SAE guess work!

In terms of mapping, the reason we went DD was so we could steady state accross the entire rev range, not just powr mapping as you say.... yes blame the mapping, oh, the cam timing is out.....

I assumed (silly of me in retrospect) that the uprated cams were fitted by a comptentant person, and not be so far out....

On the plus side, will be mapping it in about 20 minutes, so we will see what power we make

as above....the mapping CAN make the diff between fly and @ wheels figures. if the first map really is that s**t, and the finished map is all goooood

 

[Adey.]

the map doesnt change trans losses??????

 

[iimushroomzii]

It's great to see you're making such an effort to get this sorted Matt! Don't know why you seem to be getting so much of a flaming. Hope its sorted easily