few problems just had my car itb'd

[mattatmtech]

sounds good to me , if it isn't running around the 200 when it comes out of there i think thats what i would want to do ,

If it isnt running around 200 after mapping by me then the engine/exhuast/transmission/bearings are at fault.

It will make the maximum power that optimul fueling and ignition timing will deliver, on the particular setup that is currently there.

That is the purpose of mapping....

 

[Russ_16v]

looking forward to your post Matt, i think its good what your doing in my opinion

 

[mattatmtech]

Cheers Russ, my 2 mechanics say a gallon of fuel and a lighter will fix it lol, my attitude is I want the car to go away running spot on. Even if it is something that isnt down to us I dont mind doing it FOC as we have made the money we aimed to make from the conversion, and ultimatley I won;t be touching clios again! (Although saying that I'm discriminasting as Chips Clio I mapped is 100% as is Dave Knights 172 circuit car.....

Maybe its just the weather

 

[mattatmtech]

Oh, the exhaust (and Nick will back me up) is a complete BODGE. I wont mention the company as thats down to Nick if he wishes to disclose it but I have never seen weldong like it, dread to think what its flow is like.....

 

[Nick r26r]

the welding on the exhaust is sh1t granted , but it will flow 200bhp all day long , dont try fobbing it on on the exhaust its 2.25" and is from manifold back with no cat in so it wont be restricted , so now its gone from the cams being out (which was) , engine being worn where compression was good , and now the exhaust not flowing enough ,

 

[mattatmtech]

Just ideas.... certain engines require specific backpressures for optimul operation, but if you say it is a good system, then I will rule it out...

 

[Adey.]

Bottom line uve not touched the car for weeks, the battery was flat and the brakes seized on when I saw it, and a phone call on Friday at lunch time to find out where the keys are when the car was ment to be finished is bang out of order

 

[Ste666]

I have to say i've never come across anyone as willing to be so much help as matt has been, fair point it's taken a long time but as you all have to admit no one on here has any real clue as to the true problem and they are far more familiar with clio's than matt is.......as with any business you can't drop every other job and spend all day every day on one car.
Having said that i feel for you Nick paying so much, you would expect it to be done right in the first place, i just hope when it's all done it produces the 200 bhp you were hoping for and that the true problem comes to light.

 

[Nick r26r]

does anyone think it could be down to the fact the normal ecu has been taken out completely and there v4 ecu has been put in its place ??

 

[mattatmtech]

Bottom line uve not touched the car for weeks, the battery was flat and the brakes seized on when I saw it, and a phone call on Friday at lunch time to find out where the keys are when the car was ment to be finished is bang out of order

Bang out of order?

Remember we came down and opened the unit at 9pm so he could take bits off and I left you wioth the key, which you then put in the door?

I could have the attitude that we close at 5pm chaps, all colelctions/work to be carried out in those hours.

The discs arent rusty (its been stood for 2 weeks!) and we move the car around pretty much everyday. (you may of noticed itd parked in front of a bay dorr, and consiering there was a skip there in the clios place from the MOT ground works just 1 week ago... (wednesday it was collected!!) hmm... rightio...

I'm not going to get itno petty arguments.

I will map the engine as presented. I will give it MBT on ignition timing, and optimul AFRs. If it fails to make power......... then what?

 

[mattatmtech]

does anyone think it could be down to the fact the normal ecu has been taken out completely and there v4 ecu has been put in its place ??

As I said on the phone Nick, the simple answer is NO.

We have cotrol over the injectors and the Coils, and we read the sensors. The is nothing else to an engine that an ECU can alter to make power (apart from Cam timing or something like VLI on some seriously crazy japanese lump.

If you have control of all the actuators, and take data from sensors that alter those actuations, there is nothing more you can do to gain power. The factory ECU is redundant.

The engine is from a mappers perspective any Otto 4 stroke.... CANbus bla bla cannot alter the shape of the pistons, or the principle of the 4 stroke...

Anyone who says contary to this does not see the engine as any true calibrator would. A lump of metal with the aim to have maximum VE, and hence maximum amount of correctly buring mixture ignited at the correct time for maximum torque.

 

[Nick r26r]

so if i did decided !! to put the standard loom back in the car and put back to standard with cam timing spot on it would still make sh1t power , it made 155bhp before being touched with cam timing out so surely if i put old wiring loom back in it would make a bit more as the cam timing is spot on now , so why is it now making worse power than what it made to start of !! that is why i questioned the ecu!! have you also sealed the throttle bodies properly yet matt as they had a slight leak when i last drove the car !!!

 

[justinhincks87]

and if you cant pull away from your mates cup there is deffinately something wrong :S

 

[Nick r26r]

and if you cant pull away from your mates cup there is deffinately something wrong :S

we gathered that mate , as my mates cup is only standard so must be running about 160-170 , and mine running 180 couldnt pull away from him

 

[mwn11]

so if i did decided !! to put the standard loom back in the car and put back to standard with cam timing spot on it would still make sh1t power , it made 155bhp before being touched with cam timing out so surely if i put old wiring loom back in it would make a bit more as the cam timing is spot on now

That doesnt make any sense as it only dropped power when cam timing was correct. the only way it would make that again is if the cam timing was put back to incorect?

Could the incorect cam timing have damaged the engine and thus why it is making less power?

 

[mattatmtech]

Indeed, the aim here is to get the car mapped and finished.

The car also loses coolant, but it doesent appear to be H/G...... no spills on floor near dyno so can only assume its leaving via exhaust... another issue on the 'to-inspect' list....

 

[mattatmtech]

I believe (and as advised by another chap (tuner) on here via PM) that the cam timing needs to be set by DTI. Its the way we always do it with Kent cams, in fact any cams. OEM markings are crap, cams are made at all sorts of random base angles (Kents words to me many years ago!)

It lost 50bhp from 'correcting' cam timing..... my aim is to competely remap it on this new cam timing and also startr afesh with ginition timing and base setup. IF it then makes the magic proclamied 200bhp that these engines make time and time again allegedly, we have a result. If it doesent make AT LEAST 180 again like it did before, we then KNOW FOR SURE that cam timing is out, or the engine has failed in some way beyong testing of leakdown and compression which is pretty much all you can test externally for engines health) I will be cracking out the DTI and setting these cams up to catcam specs as we do with any other car. The specs are there for a reason...

 

[Nick r26r]

That doesnt make any sense as it only dropped power when cam timing was correct. the only way it would make that again is if the cam timing was put back to incorect?

Could the incorect cam timing have damaged the engine and thus why it is making less power?

so if i put it back to standard with correct cam timing it should surely make more as it is now spot on !!! thats what i was saying , engine compression is to good as said before in thread for the engine to be damaged !!

 

[Chesh]

I dont think any more can be said until it is remapped surely?

I agree with what laine said a page or so back, the car was mapped to the incorrect cam timing. The cam timing has now been rectified, but the map is still for the incorrect timing and is therefore wrong for the present timing. A second remap should sort things?

 

[Nick r26r]

hopefully , i await the results ,

 

[mwn11]

But danny has said that it is stock timing?

I think alot of people would trust danny over any infomation they have read as he has the experience.

 

[Chesh]

YYYEEEESSSS IT IS STOCK TIMING!!!!!!

Let me put this to you in a simple way as no one seems to understand :S

Incorrect cam timing = timing 1
Stock timing = timing 2

Ignore the fact timing 1 is 'incorrect'

The map is presently for timing 1
Timing 2 was then dialled in
The car is still running a map for timing 1 and as such is not compatible with timing 2
The car needs a remap to produce a custom map for timing 2

 

[mwn11]

Can a map really make 70 horses different? as that is whats missing at the moment i think.

 

[mattatmtech]

AFR is still near enough the same (around 13.2:1)...

 

[mattatmtech]

Im looking forward to remapping, once and for all

 

[stu-172]

Matt are you mapping it now? Shud you not be in the pub instead of in the workshop mapping? Lol. Very commendable if your working late on a friday night to fix it!

 

[mattatmtech]

lol still at the unit but wrapping it up for the night now....

Out tomorrow night in Southampton of all places

 

[Fred@BTM]

I believe (and as advised by another chap (tuner) on here via PM) that the cam timing needs to be set by DTI. Its the way we always do it with Kent cams, in fact any cams. OEM markings are crap, cams are made at all sorts of random base angles (Kents words to me many years ago!)

It lost 50bhp from 'correcting' cam timing..... my aim is to competely remap it on this new cam timing and also startr afesh with ginition timing and base setup. IF it then makes the magic proclamied 200bhp that these engines make time and time again allegedly, we have a result. If it doesent make AT LEAST 180 again like it did before, we then KNOW FOR SURE that cam timing is out, or the engine has failed in some way beyong testing of leakdown and compression which is pretty much all you can test externally for engines health) I will be cracking out the DTI and setting these cams up to catcam specs as we do with any other car. The specs are there for a reason...

sorry but BULLSHIT!! with 428's you use stock timing (ie uing the renault tools as Danny has done in this case)

good luck using a DTI on an F4R!

i've built a few cars running 428's on stock ported plenums with OE mapped ecu's and have done over 160 @ wheels

i'm having a Jenvey ITB'd clio with 428's mapped on tuesday, i'm hoping we see 175@ wheels, i'll report back

 

[sideways danny]

sorry but BULLs**t!! with 428's you use stock timing (ie uing the renault tools as Danny has done in this case)

THANK YOU!!!!!!!

Not liking the incinuations being made TBH




And as said........good luck using a DTI on an F4R without some very specialised tools (that do exist, but you'll need to spend several hundred pounds on them), and all for probably the mildest upgrade cams known to man, the exhaust cam is standard FFS!!!!!!!!

 

[Hutchie]

why would cam manufactors copy oem timing setup if they made it offset???

standard timing is optimal.
(on a side not, lol at people with variable pullies on a renault floating pully engine.)

if its timed correctly
correct fuel
correct advance
correct phase on dephaser
and plenty of flow it should go well.

good luck

 

[sideways danny]

crappy phone picture, but this is how you can dial in cams on an F4R with a DTI, using tooling supplied by Catcams

 

[Hutchie]

we have a cam cover chopped into several piece's dti'd cams and decided slots in end where within half a degree. close enough tbh.

 

[Munson]

WTF?

Want my gran to have a look?

</forums>

 

[stan*]

It was me that suggested checking lift at tdc.

It wasnt meant to be cam specific or based on disputing these cams use stock timing marks, it was to prove that the correct lift was being applied at the valves.....a basic thing to rule out when chasing lost power.

 

[Ollie82.]

My good god. Why do so many of the OP's 'posse' insist on dipping their oars in?
You aren't helping the situation in the slightest.

From what i've read, and correct me if im wrong here, the car went to this 'tuner' unfit.
It then made a gain of 30bhp before the timing was discovered to be out.
This was corrected by Danny and it has now lost 50bhp.
Something alot of people don't seem to understand is that these guys will have OTHER jobs to do.
Its a common issue we have with customers....they seem to think the entire worksforce should focus all the attention on their pride and joy and not attend to other (probably higher paying) work.

So, to be fair to the guy dealing with this car, he seems to be doing his upmost to discover the problem, and its a problem that it hasn't caused.

I think the OP needs to ignore all sh*tty comments from his sidekicks and form his own opinion of what has gone on and what is being done.
Someone of a sensible manner will see the figures, understand the situation and allow things to progress......not cry defeat, **** off the guy in one post and then praise him in the next.

Reminds me of this TBH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQoPcUXyf3g

 

[Damo_Sport]

My good god. Why do so many of the OP's 'posse' insist on dipping their oars in?
You aren't helping the situation in the slightest.

From what i've read, and correct me if im wrong here, the car went to this 'tuner' unfit.
It then made a gain of 30bhp before the timing was discovered to be out.
This was corrected by Danny and it has now lost 50bhp.
Something alot of people don't seem to understand is that these guys will have OTHER jobs to do.
Its a common issue we have with customers....they seem to think the entire worksforce should focus all the attention on their pride and joy and not attend to other (probably higher paying) work.

So, to be fair to the guy dealing with this car, he seems to be doing his upmost to discover the problem, and its a problem that it hasn't caused.

I think the OP needs to ignore all sh*tty comments from his sidekicks and form his own opinion of what has gone on and what is being done.
Someone of a sensible manner will see the figures, understand the situation and allow things to progress......not cry defeat, **** off the guy in one post and then praise him in the next.

Reminds me of this TBH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQoPcUXyf3g

No offence, but if it was done CORRECT in the first place.. the they wouldnt have this problem

if i just loads on money on a tuning kit for example and it comes back with 20bhp gain, i would be straight htere getting them to fix it there and then.

 

[Ollie82.]

Of course, and i'd be the same.
But i'd allow the tuner involved to take the car back and get to the bottom of the issue without having to battle through the flack that he is getting on here.

Certain thing need to be considered and allowances made. Yes, they seemingly aren't familiar with this engine but you pay a premium for money spent at reputable tuners familar with a particular badge.
This guy is now bending over backwards to get to the bottom of the problem but also has to contend with a customer who has now declared the car is a loss and want to jump ship, giving deadlines.
I'd be grateful that the guy involved with the job is so determined to make it right.

 

[mattatmtech]

Ollie, Thanks, my view of things exactly!

danny/Fred: I was in NO WAY doubting what you guys have said/done about the cam timing, only passing on what someone else has told me.

After I have mapped it on the stock timing setup, we will see the results.

The ultimate statement is this:
Nick, without me spending any chargeable time checking the health of the engine, cam timing, gearbox, exhaust flow, valve seating etc etc, are you presenting the car ready for mapping, aiming for optimul AFR and ignition timing such that the results made are the maximum power outputs your current configuration will provide?

That is the number 1 mapping question, I dont think I have ever had a car in 'for just mapping' without finding a barage of faults first. Although most of our work is where people have tried to wire stuff up or use completely incorrect parts....

Like I said, I am happy to map the car FREE OF CHARGE now the TIMING WHICH WAS WRONG HAS BEEN CORRECTED. If the power is still shocking, then I suggest a renault specialist take a look, as after 6 years of mapping all differnt types of engines (including these engines) and fixing other peoples effups, I'll be damned if I can give a reason....

 

[Nick r26r]

If the power is still shocking, then I suggest a renault specialist take a look,

so basically you are saying if the product you fitted is still running sh1t , lumpy and stinking of fuel and fuel dripping out of the exhaust , than thats it and i take it to another renault specialist and pay more money on top of the money i have paid!! the car went it your place running smooth maybe a bit low on power but drove fine and picked up very well , once the throttle bodies were fitted with your ecu the car went lumpy and would splutter unless you had your foot flat to the floor (which isnt practical pulling into a junction or down a residentual area) and absolutely stank of fuel , even fuel dripping out of the exhaust pipes , even your dad said when i dropped it of that it stank of fuel

 

[Jay Payne]

I think i know who did your exhaust, is it really that bad?