geo setting and spacers

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rebuilt the front corners again last night with camber bolts, spacers (20mm each side) and new cup shocks , with lovely new topmounts ....



off to set it up on a 4 wheel in a bit but the rear has -1.33 and -1.35 (just over -1.5 degrees unless i am going mental as there are 60 mins in a degree)

so , the thinking is -2 to -2.5 on the front , 20mm spacers parallel toe , the rear is spot on square (brilliant rear beam) and already has -1.5 which i think is enough ..... but how much to space the rear ?

my gut says 10mm or 15mm , hubcentrics i can only see from fk in 30mm total 15/15

too much for the rear ,and more camber on the rear , maybe -2 .....


mostly a road car running on contisports so we have all the info ......... mainly looking at those who understand geo setups on this one , no offence to anyone .

 

[MG cup]

My cars run down.

Wheels et40 16" pro race 1.2's with 205/50/16 RS-R's, 10mm space all round so you could say et30 wheels (hubs modified to suit 10mm hubcentric's)

Suspension new cup dampers and sportlines.

Front

4 deg camber, parrelel, cup arms (obviously) 10mm spacers and slight scrubbing initially on the plastic dome that covers the bumper bracket untill it was worn away.

Rear

Nearer 2 deg rear camber (completely standard beam) slight toe in right side and slight toe out left side so It likes to turn.

Rear ARB full stiff.

4 deg up front sounds excessive but if you look at below pic then dynimacally it is brought back a fair bit, I have done around 800 track and road miles on a new set of federal RS-R's and not noticed any strange wearing.

This is in the wet too so wing mirrors touch the floor in the dry.

 

[MG cup]

And to give you an idea of 'stance' duuuude.

 

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think i have got it sussed , going to add 15mm spacers per side on the rear ..... -2.5 on the front , -1.5 on the rear , just done the geo and got that setup , and will just get rear hubcentric's

 

[Chip-mk1]

Harv, you plans sound fine, but rear spacers if you want 10mm you only have two options:
Hubcentric NON bolt to hub with longer bolts or studs
Space the hub itself out instead



Swede, the RSR really love to munch the outside edge to bits, so I think the more camber you can run on those particular tyres the longer they will last, so for them 4 degrees is probably ideal.

 

[MG cup]

Harv, you plans sound fine, but rear spacers if you want 10mm you only have two options:
Hubcentric NON bolt to hub with longer bolts or studs
Space the hub itself out instead



Swede, the RSR really love to munch the outside edge to bits, so I think the more camber you can run on those particular tyres the longer they will last, so for them 4 degrees is probably ideal.

There is a fair bit of degradation/graining on the outside edges compared to elsewhere but nothing out of the norm that I haven't read or heard about.

And spacer wise the smallest bolt to hub type you get is 20 anyway ain't it? I would space the hub if I did it again on my road car and thats the plan on the race car for bearing longevity.

 

[Chip-mk1]

There is a fair bit of degradation/graining on the outside edges compared to elsewhere but nothing out of the norm that I haven't read or heard about.

Yeah its the outside edge that seems to be the root of all the failures on those tyres, so extra camber to manage the heat on the outside edge is worth doing, doesnt apply to all tyres though of course.

And spacer wise the smallest bolt to hub type you get is 20 anyway ain't it? I would space the hub if I did it again on my road and thats the plan on the race car for bearing longevity.

Yeah 20mm is about the limit for a bolt to hub as there has to be the depth of the head (with a shallow head bolt) and also enough metal to still be strong where that bolt seats.

I doubt 10mm makes much odds to your bearings TBH, they are very high offset wheels anyway so are still a very positive offset even with a 10mm difference in ET from a space.

 

[MG cup]

Yeah its the outside edge that seems to be the root of all the failures on those tyres, so extra camber to manage the heat on the outside edge is worth doing, doesnt apply to all tyres though of course.





Yeah 20mm is about the limit for a bolt to hub as there has to be the depth of the head (with a shallow head bolt) and also enough metal to still be strong where that bolt seats.

I doubt 10mm makes much odds to your bearings TBH, they are very high offset wheels anyway so are still a very positive offset even with a 10mm difference in ET from a space.

I would still be running 4 deg on any tyre on track with this setup, the brand new set of hankook evo s1's I had on for one track day were fairly mullered outside considering the mileage they had on them. The fact I'm wearing outside edges on tyres with 4 deg neg and I know the tracking is spot on says I need more camber and I might max out the bolts next setup time, iirc just over 4.5 I can get.

Yeah I know its no different to having an et30 wheel but when I'm away to try and space out my racecar beam by 30mm a side its going to make a massive difference. Saying that I'm onto this cars 3rd rear bearing on passengers side in as many trackdays, 1st one's condition was unknown.

 

[Chip-mk1]

What make bearings are you using?

ECP etc do sell decent make ones like SKF,but they also sell utter litter for half the price. Avoid that like the plague!


On my turbo I have KW coilovers sat to maximum neg on the adjustment bolts, must be similar to yours and I agree that it works really well, I wouldnt want to do 100K road miles on it like that as im sure tyres would suffer, but mine only gets used for trackdays or naughty road driving anyway for the bulk of its miles really so not too much of an issue. (its not as good on fuel as the RS2 car so unless using the extra performance it makes no sense to be in it)

 

[rdoxenham]

Edit: I need to learn to read! Is it just the camber bolts you're using to get the -4 degrees? Or are you using top mounts too?

 

[MG cup]

Edit: I need to learn to read! Is it just the camber bolts you're using to get the -4 degrees? Or are you using top mounts too?

Yes its just camber bolts I'm using on my cup to get 4 degrees. 172 Cups have different drilled subframes to give more camber so you won't get quite near that on any other Clio.

It was a FAG bearing too Chip but like I said the first one was unknown and now I'm onto my 3rd I'll see how this lasts, don't know if its the kerbs or what at KH that's causing it tbh, might need a new stub axle as a new bearing has slight movement straight away (disk spacers are fitted)

 

[rdoxenham]

Interesting, I've got a Cup, was unaware I could stretch to that much camber with just the bolts! Thanks a lot

 

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my geo setup when i took it to get it set up the morning was -4 , on the ns , felt great into roundabouts LOL alas that would kill tyres on a road car in no time

​Fk are sending me a set of 15mm hubcentric bolt ons , thats the smallest bolt ons you can do , and i think 15mm for the rear with 20mm up front will be fine , lets hope they arrive , must get a brake fluid change done this weekend too.

 

[Edges]

my geo setup when i took it to get it set up the morning was -4 , on the ns , felt great into roundabouts LOL alas that would kill tyres on a road car in no time

​Fk are sending me a set of 15mm hubcentric bolt ons , thats the smallest bolt ons you can do , and i think 15mm for the rear with 20mm up front will be fine , lets hope they arrive , must get a brake fluid change done this weekend too.

As mentioned earlier.. Hub spacers are an option if you want 10mm! I've just taken some off as new RSR tyres rubbed with the spacers (et35 wheels!) so basically I have 10mm hub spacers sitting in the garage if you wanted them?

 

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shame ,were they bolt to hub hubcentrics though?

mine are on order now , expensive to go the bolt on route but worth it i think .

mine at the front now looks like this

View attachment 100048View attachment 100049View attachment 100050

 

[MG cup]

He was on about the rear 'hub' spacers

That was quick delivery?

 

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that's the fronts , i set up the front this morning :rasp:


​rears are (i hope) in the post

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hub spaces go behind the hub not behind the wheel Harv.

Thats good news about FK doing 15mm ones, I didnt realise they went that slim on bolt to hub types.

 

[MG cup]

Yours looks a LOT more spaced than mine with just 10mm extra, wheel offset is only 2.5mm different but the thing that is probably making the big difference is the camber, 2.5 looks massively different to 4 deg.

FYI FK sell spacers that don't even fit the standard hubs (I know as I have 10mm hub centric slide on's) I had to grind away some of the hubs spigot front and back to get mine on (no biggie)

iirc 16mm is the smallest you can go without needing mods, especially on the front???

 

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Hub spaces go behind the hub not behind the wheel Harv.

Thats good news about FK doing 15mm ones, I didnt realise they went that slim on bolt to hub types.

​that's the slimmest they do ....

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yours looks a LOT more spaced than mine with just 10mm extra, wheel offset is only 2.5mm different but the thing that is probably making the big difference is the camber, 2.5 looks massively different to 4 deg.

FYI FK sell spacers that don't even fit the standard hubs (I know as I have 10mm hub centric slide on's) I had to grind away some of the hubs spigot front and back to get mine on (no biggie)

iirc 16mm is the smallest you can go without needing mods, especially on the front???

Yeah on the front I have had to machine down the spigot before to fit inside the slimmer spacers, no big deal though.


Harv, make sure you check that the spacer fits all the way over the spigot before you bolt the wheel on, ive seen people wondering why their wheels come lose or feel out of balance when they have missed that.

 

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Yeah on the front I have had to machine down the spigot before to fit inside the slimmer spacers, no big deal though.


Harv, make sure you check that the spacer fits all the way over the spigot before you bolt the wheel on, ive seen people wondering why their wheels come lose or feel out of balance when they have missed that.

of course :rasp:

 

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Yours looks a LOT more spaced than mine with just 10mm extra, wheel offset is only 2.5mm different but the thing that is probably making the big difference is the camber, 2.5 looks massively different to 4 deg.

FYI FK sell spacers that don't even fit the standard hubs (I know as I have 10mm hub centric slide on's) I had to grind away some of the hubs spigot front and back to get mine on (no biggie)

iirc 16mm is the smallest you can go without needing mods, especially on the front???

yep going to stick 15mm on the rear not the front ....

​and yes i had -4 on the nsf and -3 on the osf when i took it in , and i knew it had more than 2.5 on looking at it (and driving it )

 

[Dan@M.A.D]

​that's the slimmest they do ....

15mm bolt to hub spacers will require you to shorten the length of the standard bolts to enable them to bolt into the spacer. 15mm doesn't physically have enough thickness in it to accommodate the standard clio bolts.

i wouldn't recommend shortening bolt lengths either.. i can't remember off the top of my head but i think the bolts are about 2-3mm too long so really 20mm is going to be the minimum size.

 

[...]

15mm bolt to hub spacers will require you to shorten the length of the standard bolts to enable them to bolt into the spacer. 15mm doesn't physically have enough thickness in it to accommodate the standard clio bolts.

i wouldn't recommend shortening bolt lengths either.. i can't remember off the top of my head but i think the bolts are about 2-3mm too long so really 20mm is going to be the minimum size.

dan can you do me a 15mm spacer that will fit behind the hub , quick?

 

[Dan@M.A.D]

dan can you do me a 15mm spacer that will fit behind the hub , quick?

They're in stock

Camber or no camber?

 

[...]

They're in stock

Camber or no camber?

no camber .... price ?
​

 

[NorthloopCup]

You may find that running a small amount of toe in also works better as well mate. It's all down to the alteration of the scrub radius from standard when using spacers.

 

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You may find that running a small amount of toe in also works better as well mate. It's all down to the alteration of the scrub radius from standard when using spacers.

​gone parallel for now and will see how it feels , as i can't give an objective view on the road (amazes me when people can)

 

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well a thanks to Dan for a rapid delivery on the spacers ..... one side done fairly easy , however its all gone a bit pete on the o/s ......

needless to say the drill is flat for drilling the heads off the bolts which are totally and utterly seized ..... even with the gun on them (yes i have now snapped my torx bit but that was going to happen when the gun came out .......

​needless to say i will be in the garage tomorrow night sorting that .

 

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Got up early this morn and was in the workshop at 7 ... much thought and a drill shattered in my face (always wear eye protectiong chaps I was lucky and only got a cut face )
Got it all sorted ... feels ok on a short test drive but think one of my nes top mounts is squeaking grrrrrrrr

 

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.

 

[Dan@M.A.D]

looks great mate!

 

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2 bolts on one side were not ... the "c" word was used a few times I can tell you .

Lets hope it handles well .... only other poss mod is a rear arb ....

And this is all for a car that wasn't really to be tracked ..... god help me