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Heel Toeing in a 182?

rob_willow said:
I have no idea what this thread is about.... :( Please teach me!
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Zippo said:
Anyone else not know WTF heel toeing is :o:o:o
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You two need to go & frequent an Audi forum or something, they wont know what it is either :rasp:

Essentially, braking whilst using the throttle to match the revs, makes your downshifts smoother & is essential in powerful RWD cars to avoid transmission lock up + big crash whilst 'making progress' ...
 
^^^ Its also good for your gearbox. Always give mine a bit of a plip on down changes to keep them smooth
 
Takes a bit of time I think, I love doing it now, so easy and pretty much second nature. Love the sound of throttle blipping on downshifts lol
 
Should have a go in a Williams. Bag of wind in the RS's compared to that.

I think the pedals are well placed in the Renault Sports.
 
Walter is pretty good on the pedals.

[YOUTUBE]DbU4GZkt7ig[/YOUTUBE]
 
Fred said:
big toe on the brake, little toe on the throttle - easy
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Fred (or anyone else!), as an instructor, do you have any tips for people who struggle with this?

i just can't do it without pulsing the brake - heel on the floor, size 10 over the pedals as described, fairly short-armed driving position (i.e. sitting close to the wheel)

do some people just not have the required flexibility in their ankles? or is there something i might be able to try?
 
JonC said:
..and you have someone else to operate the clutch perhaps?
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if your in the right gear you wont need to clutch!!!

kevin.s said:
ive tryed this before and end up just locking up and stalling, shortly followed by looking silly.
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depends how good you are at doing it, you dont need to apply much pressure this is probably what your doing


Jamie said:
Walter is pretty good on the pedals.

[youtube]DbU4GZkt7ig[/youtube]
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as shown!! hes in the right gears
 
^^ and also using a sequential box ;)

i manage to use my heel for the brakes and angle the front of my foot to reach the throttle, never had any trouble doing that at all?
 
Zippo said:
Anyone else not know WTF heel toeing is :o:o:o
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Not sure if you joking? :o

I was going to write up a little guide but I actually found this and its perfect for the cause :rasp:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Here is a step-by-step guide on how to heel-and-toe downshift. It will explain how to shift from fourth gear to third gear, though the technique will work for any downshift.
[/FONT]
Begin braking for the corner with your right foot. The location of the pedals and the size of your foot will dictate where you position your foot on the pedal, but most likely it should be canted a little to the right, closer to the throttle pedal.

Push in the clutch with your left foot.

This is the hard part. With your right foot still applying pressure to the brakes, roll the outside edge of your foot outward and downward to touch the throttle pedal. The pedal design on some cars makes this easier to do than on others. Use the outside of your right foot to blip the throttle. Blipping the throttle means temporarily raising the engine rpms to match the wheel speed. The exact amount of revs needed is dependent on a variety of factors, but it is usually between 1,000 rpm to 2,000 rpm more than the current engine rpm for a one-gear downshift.

Move the shifter to third gear.

Release the clutch with your left foot.​
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I cant do it. Everytime i do i tend to not put enough brake on as the pedal is too low compared to the brake. Quite scary tbh lol
 
Christophe said:
I cant do it. Everytime i do i tend to not put enough brake on as the pedal is too low compared to the brake. Quite scary tbh lol
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I have a few times, it can be hairy due to the spacing of the pedals, the height of the pedals when pressed also cause a bit of a hoo hah, although I read someone used washers as spacers to lift the pedals as required, sounds like a good fix IMHO
 
m3stig said:
depends how good you are at doing it, you dont need to apply much pressure this is probably what your doing
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thats my problem. because my left foot is so usto just going strait to the floor for the clutch, i just do it without thinking about it but if i only give it a bit, i dont tend to slow in time and end up slamming the brakes on lol.
 
why bother? there isn't a genuine need to heel-toe a car like a clio on the road.

heel-toeing is mainly for cars that have drive to/at the rear wheel drives, mainly to stop the back locking up under extreme braking/engine revs and obviously in the wet, its many times worse.
 
I have to admit i don't tend to have to drop a gear when i'm at 6k rpm on the roads.

I must not be trying hard enough.
 
I don't have a problem with this even with my microscopic size 7's. When my feet and pedals are wet is a bit dodge though.

I certainly feel the need for especially given that the car likes to be driven hard in the higher revs.
 
Race car drivers do this because they dont want to lock the rear wheels on downshift with the weight shift of braking.

Rally car drivers do this because they use dog gears and need to get the revs right to slot them in cleanly.

Why you would need to do this in a fwd road car with a syncromesh, i have no idea.
 
Try putting your car into 2nd from 3rd at 40/45mph, it's quite difficult as you would have to ram it in, as such you match the revs to make it smoother. It may have syncro but it isn't a magical bit of engineering which makes all down changes easy and silky smooth.
 
I find the 182 VERY easy to heel toe. Easier than my 106 track car which i modified an already close setup to make easier.
 
bradharding24 said:
Race car drivers do this because they dont want to lock the rear wheels on downshift with the weight shift of braking.

Rally car drivers do this because they use dog gears and need to get the revs right to slot them in cleanly.

Why you would need to do this in a fwd road car with a syncromesh, i have no idea.
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To prevent the rear wheels from lifting which is easily done in a lightweight car. The balance of the car itself is vital for stable cornering
 
No one's mentioned feel and sensitivity yet.

There's no need for most to have a raised pedal, you just need to be able to roll your foot off to the right to blip the throttle, while maintaining a constant pressure through the brake padel beneath your rolling foot.

Feel and sensitivity.

Practice, practice, practice, always, every down change. That's how it came to me.
 
bradharding24 said:
Race car drivers do this because they dont want to lock the rear wheels on downshift with the weight shift of braking.

Rally car drivers do this because they use dog gears and need to get the revs right to slot them in cleanly.

Why you would need to do this in a fwd road car with a syncromesh, i have no idea.
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The reason all of them do this is smoothness and balance and that's why it can be beneficial in any situation. Nothing whatsoever to do with the synchromesh...that would be double de-clutching.
 
MarkCup said:
The reason all of them do this is smoothness and balance and that's why it can be beneficial in any situation. Nothing whatsoever to do with the synchromesh...that would be double de-clutching.
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No you misunderstand, and are therefore wrong.

Smoothness and balance? Have you ever seen Jean Ragnotti drive a Group A clio? Rally drivers dont heel toe for smoothness and balance i can assure you. They try to upset the balance in the braking zone to unsettle the car and get it sideways by the apex. Go watch a video of a quality rally driver and watch how they steer out of the corner and brake to flick the car into the corner.

My reference was to synchromesh versus dog rings. I can see a reason to heel toe with a dog ring gear box in a fwd car. Hence my reference to rally drivers that 'generally' use dog boxes. They heel toe not because they want to look good in their red driving gloves, or because they want to be smooth, but because it is necessary to raise the revs on the downshift to get the dog rings in the gearbox to engage. If they didnt do this they would rapidly increase the rate of wear on the dog rings.

There is no reason to do it in a fwd road car with a synchromesh gearbox as the syncromesh doesnt work in the same way as a dog engagement.

The problem is people see their favourite rally drivers doing it and use twisted logic to justify doing it in a road car with a completely different transmission system.

If you owned a rwd car and drove it hard in the wet you might also understand somthing about the necessity of being smooth. You dont need to do this in a clio. The back will stay in line no matter how rough you are on the downshift. Try the same in a supra or an mr2 and you will end up in a hedge.
 
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bradharding24 said:
No you misunderstand, and are therefore wrong. My reference was to synchromesh versus dog rings. I can see a reason to heel toe with a dog ring gear box in a fwd car. Hence my reference to rally drivers that 'generally' use dog boxes. They heel toe not because they want to look good in their red driving gloves, but because it is necessary to raise the revs on the downshift to get the dog rings in the gearbox to engage. If they didnt do this they would rapidly increase the rate of wear on the dog rings.

There is no reason to do it in a fwd road car with a synchromesh gearbox as the syncromesh doesnt work in the same way as a dog engagement.

The problem is people see their favourite rally drivers doing it and use twisted logic to justify doing it in a road car with a completely different transmission system.
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have you ever used a dog box? rally drivers are not heel and toeing for the sake of the engagement, you can use a dog box without the clutch once it has warmed up.

they are doing it for the reasons that mark cup explained, which apply to any car, be it front, rear or four wheel drive. namely balance and stability.

the smoother your gear changes the less weight transfer will take place, which in turn means less energy is dissipated, meaning you preserve your forward momentum.

obviously you will have some other "reason" which will make you right, so i'll leave you to it now ;)
 
mr harding heal and toeing, regardless of gearbox type DOES (if done correctly) keep the car balanced under braking and is 100% beneficial

ie go from 110mph in 4th, hit the brakes and drop to 2nd at say 60mph and lift the clutch as per "joe blogs" drivers and what happens?
 
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