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Help, no spark, help!



Hello clio sport community. After number of years fancying these cars and spending nights reading your posts, I decided to buy one as well. After few weeks searching, I bought x reg clio sport in silver with clutch release bearing failure. At the time of purchase, gearbox was already a part from engine, so I could not listen to the engine. After five months of bad weather, I started sorting out the car: fitted new clutch kit, managed to put everything back together, because it was a previous owner, who took it apart, then a time came to start the car and enjoy it driving and doing some mods, I had in my plans, but unfortunately id did not start. So:

All electrics are working: inside, lights, starter motor, fuel pressure relay.
Engine is turning over, you can keep trying as long as you want, but it would not start.
First thing I have noticed, when you unlock the car with pressing the button on the key, driver side indicator lights would stay solid. So I thought it will be something to do with car security, had a look in the engine bay and found two black cables hanging down of alarm siren, chased other cables,going to the siren, and noticed, that connections are not standard (like it came from factory). They were soldered and taped up. I removed the siren and all cables going to it by chasing them down, undoing the tape and cutting of, where they were soldered to original car cables, and isolated (hazard lights switch, central locking switch, ignition barrel, earth, interior light, boot light and motion sensors)

After, driver side indicators were not staying constantly on, but car would still not start.
Reverse lights are on after switching on ignition. (Reverse light sensor in the gear box has earth and power coming to it, no matter what gear is selected)

When ignition is OFF, immobilizer red light (middle of instrument cluster) is flashing one second intervals. When you switch on ignition, the light flashes twice or so and then it STOPS.
Bearing in mind, that car was sitting round for five months with disconnected battery, I tried the following:

Switch on ignition, wait until lights disappear on dash, switch of ignition, try start straight away
Scratch car key to the ground (trying to earthen it)
Switch on ignition, disconnect battery, wait 10 min, connect battery back, switch of ignition, try to start
Press central locking button , push down accelerator pedal at same time for 10 - 15 seconds. Release button and pedal.Press pedal and start car
Switch on ignition, after 10 min. switch of and then try to start

Checked ECU, using Launch diagnostics tool, following errors appeared:
DF012 - Injection -AC connection
DF014 - Coded line circuit
DF044 - Engine immobilizer line fault

ECU has been taken out from black metal protection, had a look for any obvious damage to the wiring loom, could not see any
Cleaned contacts and fuses in engine bay fuse box, swapped round relays, could hear them working ( fuel pressure and idle control valve), every relay had two contacts with power coming to them
Inside left wing checked canister (fuel breather), no damage to cables
Cleaned 4 earth cables
Using ECU diagram, checked (port:3, 33, 15,73, 75, 28 for earth (fine) and port: 30, 29, 66 power cables (fine)). According to my basic 12V tester:
Port 65 has no power or earth in the cable
Port 74 has less then 12V in the cable (light in tester is hard to see) and every time you touch it the idle control valve would "click".
If ignition is left on, the idle control valve makes "clicking" in uneven intervals and valve gets hot.

Obviously spark plug has been taken out to see, if there is spark. Spark cable checked for damage - nothing.

Coil pack has 4 contacts, but only 3 wires are connecting to it. When disconnected the plug First time, there was one cable with earth, one cable with power and one cable showed no signs. Now, after going through number of checks, there is no power, coming to the coil pack any more.
When all THREE wires are plugged in to the coil pack and I check, what is happening in the plug, tester shows ALL three having earth.

When I switch on ignition, all lights go on in instrument cluster, after little while stay battery, oil pressure and stop lights, few seconds later air bag and service lights come back on.

Next thing to do could be to get security code from Renault or get that plug, which goes to diagnostics socket and unlocks immobilizer.


That is basically all, what I managed to do, using my basic skills and google, I really hope, that I will manage to get my clio going. Even after nearly one week of negative emotions, I still like my car and hope, that there are people, who could advise me, how to get it going.
 
There should be 2 earths, 1 just above the driveshaft on the gearbox. Another that goes from the front lower gearbox mount to the chassis just in the wheel arch where the subframe mounts. Check those.
 
After ignition is on, I can hear relay and fuel building up pressure, then relay cuts it of. After trying to start I can smell fuel.
 
First time, when I checked it: I took the plug with three wires out from the coil pack and there was:
1 wire with ground all the time
1 wire was showing nothing with 12V tester, so I thought - signal should go through this one
1 wire with 12v when ignition was on, it was not cutting of during attempt to start, but it was cutting of when fuel system was pumping up to the required pressure, after 12V again

Now when I test the wires coming to the coil pack, I get only ground in the same wire as previously, but NO more 12V, checked fuse in the engine bay, could not find any blown, maybe it is one of the relays, but I don't now which one.

The immobilizer cuts fuel and spark, so it's not that. - how does immobilizer cut of fuel? Does it block the actual injector and does not allow fuel to be released the cylinder, or it blocks the fuel pressure building up as well. The thing is, I can not confirm, that injectors are operating, I can only smell fuel rich air after every time I trie to start my poor clio.
 
Talking about 3 earths in the coil pack:
When wires are plugged in the coil pack and I check the actual plug, I get 3 earths when ignition is on (That would mean, that all 3 coil pack contacts have earth in them)

At the same time, when I check, what is in 3 wires, coming to coil pack, I get:
2 wires with no response to 12V tester
1 wire with earth

I do not know, how coil pack works, but it seems, that one earth wire is feeding all three contacts in coil pack ( what should not be right), so it could be faulty circuit inside coil pack and that could lead to blowing up fuse and having 12V coming to coil pack any more.

Where can fuse be found for coil pack?

What could get damaged in car, which was sitting outside for five months?
 
  AB182, Audi A5 3.0
What happens if you leave the spark plug in place and just pull of the HT lead form the coil pack and turn it over (keeping the HT lead close to its point of contact on the coil pack), do you get a spark?
 
I haven't tried it this way, good point - it could be faulty spark plug, problem is: spark plug goes deep in the engine head, I am not sure, if I will be able to see, what is happening with the lead.
It still would not answer, why there is no 12V going to coil pack.
Using 12V tester, I should be able to see if there is power going to spark HT lead.
 
I disconnected plastic pipe of fuel line where it connects to injection rail and fuel burst out with the pressure, I am assuming, that pump is pumping.
 
There are 4 wires going to fuel pump (in fuel tank): 2 x thicker, 2 x thinner wires
2 thicker wires: 1 - earth all the time, 1 - 12v. after ignition is on (while it is pumping up the pressure) and 12V. while trying to start

2 thin wires: 1 - earth, second DOES NOT RESPOND to 12V tester (no earth or 12V going through).
 
  AB182, Audi A5 3.0
What happens if you leave the spark plug in place and just pull of the HT lead form the coil pack and turn it over (keeping the HT lead close to its point of contact on the coil pack), do you get a spark?

I haven't tried it this way, good point - it could be faulty spark plug, problem is: spark plug goes deep in the engine head, I am not sure, if I will be able to see, what is happening with the lead.
It still would not answer, why there is no 12V going to coil pack.
Using 12V tester, I should be able to see if there is power going to spark HT lead.

You misunderstood me I think. Pull the HT lead off the coil pack and hold the end you have just pulled off about 1 inch away from the terminal you just pulled it off from. Leave the other end connected to the spark plug as normal. You should see and hear a spark from the coil pack to the HT lead...
 
  172 Cup
Could the idle valve be stuck closed, preventing any air getting into the engine?
Not sure what you mean by 4 connectors or all three having earth, depends what you mean by earth!
I suggest you get a multimeter rather than a 12v tester, I've never used a 12v tester but don't know how it would tell you the difference between earth and open circuit.
 
I don't now, if stuck closed idle valve could prevent engine from starting, but physically air enters inlet manifold through throttle body when I push down accelerator pedal (at the moment top of inlet manifold is taken of to access spark plugs, so air can get to the engine)
There are 4 contacts on coil pack and only 3 wires coming to it.
It was good idea to get a multimeter out, here is the latest - There are 3 wires coming to coil pack:
1 wire is earth (earth is ON when I switch on ignition - OFF when fuel pressure is building up - ON after - OFF during the attempt to start
2 wires are coming from ECU (PORT 1 ignition coil 2 - 3 control, PORT 32 ignition coil 1 - 4 control according to "ALLOCATION OF INJECTION COMPUTER INPUTS AND OUTPUTS" diagram), multimeter is showing ~ 10V - 11V in these wires during the attempt to start.
It sounds stupid, but does it mean that coil pack is faulty and needs replacing?
 
Maybe 5 -6 months without touching car could influence that, I will check all 4 ports on coil pack, but engine is not even "trying" to start on two or one cylinder.
 
  172 Cup
A lot of these guys probably know better than me but.. it does sound strange that the earth is on/off, how are you confirming it is "earth"?
Continuity check to the engine block?
I think bad earths really do happen on Clios so it's worth bearing in mind.
 
  Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
I am based in Reading area. Would coil pack of other engine fit? (1.2, 1.6 clio or megane)

Before you do anything, check the ECU is seeing an RPM signal when cranking and make sure the fuel pump restarts pumping when you trigger the starter motor.

THEN

Check the coil plug for a live with someone else cranking the engine over. I'm sure from memory it's a 4 pin plug with only 3 wires. The one that goes live should be the one next too the missing wire hole.

If that's not going live you can put as many coil packs as you like on it and it will never go!

If it still doesn't come live at coil, unplug ALL the injectors and make sure you have a live in one of the pins per injector. Make sure you do this test with them all unplugged.

If you have a live at the injectors but not a the coil you need to test the 3 black relays in the engine bay fuse box! If they all work correctly you have a broken wire somewhere between the engine bay relay box and the coil pack. It's massively common and normally in the bulk of wires that run over the gearbox in the bracket held on with 2 10mm bolts to the gearbox mount spider.
 
  172 Cup
This guy makes a lot of sense.
You need to be consider all the potential causes, coil pack could be fine but won't fire if it doesn't know where the engine is and for this it needs a trigger signal from the ECU which needs cam and crank sensor signals, or it might not be getting a power supply and for a power supply it needs not just 12v but ground too.

But this I don't understand:
Before you do anything, check the ECU is seeing an RPM signal when cranking and make sure the fuel pump restarts pumping when you trigger the starter motor..
Which I no comprendez. What's an RPM signal? Someone somewhere said 1*2s have no crank sensor but have a "TDC" sensor then there's an "RPM signal"... why can't they just have a scarfing crank sensor?
Anyway, assuming they do have a crank sensor, I've never tried to measure for crank pulses with a multimeter, ignoring the issue of getting the probe onto the signal pin while still having the supply voltage and possibly a ground, the pulses are short lived and depending on pulse width and multimeter response time you might not even see them, to be honest I've never tried it. So unless you have a scope handy this might prove tricky.
 
  Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
This guy makes a lot of sense.
You need to be consider all the potential causes, coil pack could be fine but won't fire if it doesn't know where the engine is and for this it needs a trigger signal from the ECU which needs cam and crank sensor signals, or it might not be getting a power supply and for a power supply it needs not just 12v but ground too.

But this I don't understand:

Which I no comprendez. What's an RPM signal? Someone somewhere said 1*2s have no crank sensor but have a "TDC" sensor then there's an "RPM signal"... why can't they just have a scarfing crank sensor?
Anyway, assuming they do have a crank sensor, I've never tried to measure for crank pulses with a multimeter, ignoring the issue of getting the probe onto the signal pin while still having the supply voltage and possibly a ground, the pulses are short lived and depending on pulse width and multimeter response time you might not even see them, to be honest I've never tried it. So unless you have a scope handy this might prove tricky.

Crank sensor and TDC sensor is the same thing and it produces a signal for the ECU to understand where the engine is in the cycle and how fast it's spinning. The ECU processes this information into an RPM signal ( same as crankshaft sensor signal, just a different way of saying it.)

When the ECU sees an RPM signal from the crankshaft sensor it switches the fuel pump back on after its initial prime when the ign is turned on.

It's not the best way of seeing if the ECU is getting a crank signal but is a quick test that can be done with no specialist equipment.
 
  AB182, Audi A5 3.0
could very well be TDC sensor, had a similar thing happen on another make engine when the sensor wire had been accidently cut.
 
It is nice to see more people getting involved in this problem.
Latest:
When I started to use multimeter, first thing I have done was, I have checked the continuity of all 3 wires, coming to coil pack,I disconnected plug from ECU and found out, that TWO wires are going to PORTS 1 and 32 (IGNITION COIL CONTROL for all 4 cylinder) and THIRD one is earth, which responded to all earth wires in ECU plug as well as anywhere on engine.
My mistake was that I was using 12V tester, which is not as accurate as multimeter:
It might be difficult to understand, but I will try to explain:
If wires are unplugged of coil pack
Ignition OFF - earth is present
Ignition ON - no earth while fuel pumping up pressure, as soon as it stops, earth is present - start CRANKING and there is no earth again (because fuel is pumping like on running car)
Nothing happening with other two wires
When wires are plugged in and checking contacts in the plug so together with coil pack contacts:
Ignition ON - no earth while fuel pumping, after earth ON on all three contacts (so, using only 12V tester at the time, I thought, that coil pack is faulty), but when I start CRANKING, there is NO earth (because fuel is being pumped), ECU starts to get signals from sensors and OTHER TWO WIRES start to show UNEVEN 10V ~ 11V , because spark is not even ( 1-3 and 2-4 cylinders are not getting spark at the same time so there are gaps between, because crank shaft sensor is showing crank position).
In conclusion:
There is one relay for coil pack and fuel rail
Wires, coming to coil pack, MUST be plugged in while testing them
 
  Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
You tying yourself in a big knot here.

The ECU doesn't 12v live the trigger wires on the coil, it earths them.

The coil needs a solid 12v supply then the ECU just earths it depending if it wants to fire the coil for 1-4 or 2-3.

Forget absolutely everything.

If that car doesn't have 12v on the far pin when cranking it will never start

You say the earth goes away? Is it replaced with a live or nothing at all?

Have you tested the relays?

Are the pins and wires on the underside of the relay holder corroded?

Mike
 
Oh dear, by the looks of things, my clio will go for spares soon.
There is no solid 12V in any of the pins on coil pack.
The earth goes away while cranking and it is replaced with nothing at all.
I have checked relays by swapping them over, they all were responding. When ignition is on, all wires coming to or going out from relay holder have either earth or 12V
It was hard to pull out relays first time from the holder, because of corrosion.
 


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