Just installed 197 Cams (7 deg)

[MaddRT]

So I've just taken my 172 from the garage after the above work & the garage noted it's not holding idle & just dying if no revs are held
So this isn't ideal in a traffic situation as I don't enjoy making a racket particularly

Is this normal before having the car mapped? I thought 7 deg would be ok, I'd hate to think what 8 or even 9 are like!

tia

 

[Fletcher]

Somethings not right. I had 197 cams timed up to 7 degrees, and the car ran fine and the idle was good (apart from being lumpy due to the cams) on the long drive up to EFI for mapping.

 

[MaddRT]

Somethings not right. I had 197 cams timed up to 7 degrees, and the car ran fine, and the idle was good (apart from being lumpy due to the cams) on the long drive up to EFI for mapping.

Maybe there was a map on my car before & it's reacted like this with the cams? Possibly?

 

[imprezaworks]

Have you spoken to the garage?.

 

[MaddRT]

Have you spoken to the garage?.

I just picked it up, they told me it was cutting out but will be fine after mapping

 

[imprezaworks]

Not an expert on this. Would have thought rough idle not cutting out would be the issue.

Like i say, not an expert.

 

[Fletcher]

Maybe there was a map on my car before & it's reacted like this with the cams? Possibly?

Maybe, my car had a generic RS tuner 98 Ron map, and all was good.

197 cams and 7 degrees (before mapping) idle.

 

[MaddRT]

Not an expert on this. Would have thought rough idle not cutting out would be the issue.

Like i say, not an expert.

There's no idle at all, car just stalls itself. That's the issue

 

[imprezaworks]

Who did the job

 

[Fletcher]

There's no idle at all, car just stalls itself. That's the issue

Somethings not right then. Have the garage fitted and timed 197 cams before?

 

[MaddRT]

Who did the job

Reputable garage

 

[MaddRT]

Somethings not right then. Have the garage fitted and timed them before?

Not sure if they've done other cars - they're known as the goto Renaultsport garage in my area
They had the 7 deg tool already so I assume they have?

 

[imprezaworks]

Who make the car not idle?

 

[JamesBryan]

You have to induce a slight air leak to raise the idle to get them to run before mapping.

From what i've been told anyway.

 

[MaddRT]

Who make the car not idle?

It idled fine before I have the 197 cams installed

 

[MaddRT]

You have to induce a slight air leak to raise the idle to get them to run before mapping.

From what i've been told anyway.

Is there an art to this lol?

 

[JamesBryan]

Is there an art to this lol?

That was for standard cams actually with the Group N timing, although i'm sure it'll help with your issue until you can get it mapped with a raised idle.

 

[JamesBryan]

@NorthloopCup will know. Does this sound about right for 197 cams mate?

 

[NorthloopCup]

@NorthloopCup will know. Does this sound about right for 197 cams mate?

All you need to do is take the vacuum pipe off the throttle body and it’ll idle.

 

[JamesBryan]

All you need to do is take the vacuum pipe off the throttle body and it’ll idle.

That's the one.

 

[MonkeyKnifeFight]

Basically anti-lag

 

[Krarl]

Yeah you need to get it mapped to increase the idle above 1000rpm

I'm sure @CliosportCal stalled his car about 20572 times before his was mapped😂😂

 

[MaddRT]

Yeah you need to get it mapped to increase the idle above 1000rpm

I'm sure @CliosportCal stalled his car about 20572 times before his was mapped[emoji23][emoji23]

Sounds about right!


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[MaddRT]

All you need to do is take the vacuum pipe off the throttle body and it’ll idle.

Mint, will try. Thankyou!


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[davo172]

Reputable garage

What reputable garage gives you a car back that won't idle and says "it'll be fine after mapping" !! ?

 

[incy-spider]

Straight to bad mouthing the garage! They fitted 197 cams and timed them way out of tolerance as requested. The ECU has no chance on a standard map to control idle. It will also be very lean mid range so go easy on the drive to mapping!

As said allowing a small air leak will help for the drive to mapping but it will still be pig until mapped and possibly will still stall on occasions after.. its normal


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[MaddRT]

Straight to bad mouthing the garage! They fitted 197 cams and timed them way out of tolerance as requested. The ECU has no chance on a standard map to control idle. It will also be very lean mid range so go easy on the drive to mapping!

As said allowing a small air leak will help for the drive to mapping but it will still be pig until mapped and possibly will still stall on occasions after.. its normal


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I don’t feel it was a request way out of tolerance tbh, I asked previously what people usually time them to and 7 degrees was the norm for 197 cams?

Okay thanks, can cope with the occasional stall but not every time I take it out of gear yknow


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[MaddRT]

@NorthloopCup the vacuum you mean is the one to the brake servo right?


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[incy-spider]

I don’t feel it was a request way out of tolerance tbh, I asked previously what people usually time them to and 7 degrees was the norm for 197 cams?

Okay thanks, can cope with the occasional stall but not every time I take it out of gear yknow


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When you see how much effort and work it takes to map these to run perfectly you can appreciate just how much the calibration is changed, so to expect it to run okay on a standard map isn’t going to happen.

Pull the small pipe that normally goes to the acoustic valve on the front of the inlet for a small vacuum leak, it’ll raise the RPM a bit [emoji106]


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[MaddRT]

When you see how much effort and work it takes to map these to run perfectly you can appreciate just how much the calibration is changed, so to expect it to run okay on a standard map isn’t going to happen.

Pull the small pipe that normally goes to the acoustic valve on the front of the inlet for a small vacuum leak, it’ll raise the RPM a bit [emoji106]


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Idek if the car is running on a standard map actually, was in quite a state when I bought it, questionable bodges that have now been rectified but it's a possibility?

We're fitting ITB's soon & then it will be remotely mapped by a third party recommended by Motorsport Electronics before driving it up to EFI for final mapping, that's my plan

Assuming the pipe is the one circled below @incy-spider ?

Is there anywhere it needs to be rerouted so is it ok just being disconnected and tucked?

Thanks in advance

 

[Louis]

Didnt you research the effects of 197 cams and 7° timing? You should have had mapping lined up for right after, or arranged with the garage to sort it. They've clearly done this before as they have the tool

 

[incy-spider]

I’d imagine the acoustic valve down behind the bumper has been bypassed with an after market filter anyway. So yeah just pull it and tuck it away. I took a blanking plug that I could just shove on for the mapping


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[davo172]

Didnt you research the effects of 197 cams and 7° timing? You should have had mapping lined up for right after, or arranged with the garage to sort it. They've clearly done this before as they have the tool

That was my point ! I wasn't just bad mouthing the garage just meant that if they have done this before then they should be aware of the issue it will cause and advise you ref mapping and the issues you will have till you do.
Also to do what as been mentioned here to help until then.

 

[MaddRT]

Didnt you research the effects of 197 cams and 7° timing? You should have had mapping lined up for right after, or arranged with the garage to sort it. They've clearly done this before as they have the tool

Yes I looked at videos & spoke to numerous owners hence my thread wondering what's going on, majority of people have been very helpful and I am appreciative of this
I actually have a plan if you continued to read the thread but thanks for the concern

That was my point ! I wasn't just bad mouthing the garage just meant that if they have done this before then they should be aware of the issue it will cause and advise you ref mapping and the issues you will have till you do.
Also to do what as been mentioned here to help until then.

Yes, as aforementioned in the fifth message, they advised the car will need mapping when I picked it up & I have a plan to get it running close to what it should be before driving it for final mapping


I feel like I need to justify my reason for this thread; as above the information I found differs from how my car has reacted & wanted to get a knowledgeable second opinion for more peace of mind. Jeeez giving someone else a break today it seems

 

[Louis]

Yes I looked at videos & spoke to numerous owners hence my thread wondering what's going on, majority of people have been very helpful and I am appreciative of this
I actually have a plan if you continued to read the thread but thanks for the concern



Yes, as aforementioned in the fifth message, they advised the car will need mapping when I picked it up & I have a plan to get it running close to what it should be before driving it for final mapping


I feel like I need to justify my reason for this thread; as above the information I found differs from how my car has reacted & wanted to get a knowledgeable second opinion for more peace of mind. Jeeez giving someone else a break today it seems

I did continue to read, but you're always going to need some form of mapping. It's fine wanting to do it in steps but you're shooting yourself in the foot by not bundling some parts together.

I'm surprised the garage didnt advise in advance so you could tell them what you were planning (ITBS).

 

[MaddRT]

I did continue to read, but you're always going to need some form of mapping. It's fine wanting to do it in steps but you're shooting yourself in the foot by not bundling some parts together.

I'm surprised the garage didnt advise in advance so you could tell them what you were planning (ITBS).

We're fitting the ITB's & ECU ourselves
Couldn't fit the cams & time them and frankly didn't want the risk of it

So the scenario options were either:
Fit ITB's & ECU then drive it to garage for cams & back and then get it remotely mapped when it's back home
Or
The way we did, standard car down to the garage, cams fitted, back home for ITB's & ECU and then doesn't need to commute anywhere for anything just needs remote mapping which will be done by driving locally

We had a brief conversation with the garage regarding the cars plan & I assume my partner had previously told them that it's going to be remotely mapped before going to EFI

 

[CliosportCal]

Yeah you need to get it mapped to increase the idle above 1000rpm

I'm sure @CliosportCal stalled his car about 20572 times before his was mapped😂😂

I still do stall my car about 20572 times even now its been mapped, it just stalls itself out when the revs drop really quickly

 

[ragnottiFR]

Same problem on my RS2 172 with 197 cams and semi Group N (exhaust only) timing. The engine stalls at every roundabout. I think your timing was done unproperly and that you were in the same situation as mine. The problem is that here in France the special tool for 197 cams doesn't exist, i need to get one shipped to me from UK...

 

[ragnottiFR]

I sayed s**t, the semi Group N timing is 6 degrees on the intake and standard on the exhaust. With the previous timing (i don't know it precisely), my engine was running very well and now with 6 degrees it stalls on idle. I hope that 8 degrees will make a difference ?

 

[Kev@KAM]

What reputable garage gives you a car back that won't idle and says "it'll be fine after mapping" !! ?

A garage that does not have any mapping facilities?