K4M Rally Build

[Tomo3292]

Good evening,

just purchased a k4M 1.6 16v Mk2 clio, which i plan to turn into a Rally car, in order to compete in the 1600cc Category.

I am looking to build a relatively competitive car without going silly, as I like others will be rallying on a budget.

What I have planned is the following:
Roll cage
Bucket seats
Plumbed in Fire Extinguishers
Polycarb Windows
Cut out part of loom and interior that's not required
Strut braces
polybushes
kill switch

Purchase a 2nd engine
Install some rally cams (CAT CAMS)
Lightened Flywheel
New clutch kit
Skim head
Port and polish inlets
4-2-1 Manifold
Remap

hoping to get around 120-130bhp as this will see me in good stead.

thoughts and comments more than welcome.

 

[Pauleds]

For 1600 class get a Honda civic, 106 or something like that.
Cheaper and easier to build

 

[Knuckles]

For 1600 class get a Honda civic, 106 or something like that.
Cheaper and easier to build

I came In here hoping for an s1600.

But a 106/saxo really is a better shout.

Many a moon ago, a guy called hutchie (can't remember his user name) built a pretty mad k4m with fire blade throttle bodies.

May be worth digging his thread out?

 

[Tomo3292]

I came In here hoping for an s1600.

But a 106/saxo really is a better shout.

Many a moon ago, a guy called hutchie (can't remember his user name) built a pretty mad k4m with fire blade throttle bodies.

May be worth digging his thread out?

Yeah in hind sight i though about 106 however got the clio.
i will have a look at that thread, cant say ive come across it yet.
dont get me wrong im not after a WRC Spec car, more of a reliable clubman.

 

[Knuckles]

Hutchie is his forum name. No idea why it won't let me tag him.

Maybe f**k off the idea of cramming a new engine and try and find/fit a twingo 133 k4m?

130bhp out of the box

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

The 1600 class can be tough, some big spec motors out there. Saying that though, there is in every class!

My Escort will never be truly competitive, but I like the cars and get as much fun out of tinkering as I do anything else, so just have to enjoy what you have. The Clio could make a fun little car I'm sure. Best thing to do is get it as close to the weight limit as possible and sort the gearing out as best you can too. Oh and dampers, buy the best you can.

I look forward to seeing your progress, love a rally car, whatever it is

 

[Tomo3292]

Hutchie is his forum name. No idea why it won't let me tag him.

Maybe f**k off the idea of cramming a new engine and try and find/fit a twingo 133 k4m?

130bhp out of the box

What's the score here then mate?

Seems a decent little engine that was in the twingo.
Is this just a straight forward swap, or does the ECU need to be replaced or remapped etc!

Seems a pretty decent option open to me aswell

 

[Knuckles]

What's the score here then mate?

Seems a decent little engine that was in the twingo.
Is this just a straight forward swap, or does the ECU need to be replaced or remapped etc!

Seems a pretty decent option open to me aswell

I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I'd have thought it'd be a straight swap with them being k4ms.

@JoedotwasT5phy was bum chums with hutchie iirc, maybe he has/can get more info

 

[Tomo3292]

I don't know the ins and outs of it, but I'd have thought it'd be a straight swap with them being k4ms.

@JoedotwasT5phy was bum chums with hutchie iirc, maybe he has/can get more info

Happy days cheers mate, I'll do a bit of digging

 

[Knuckles]

Happy days cheers mate, I'll do a bit of digging

No bother

 

[Tomo3292]

I'll be looking to remove AC and maybe PAS this weekend hopefully,

Then getting the car up on the Jacks to inspect underneath.
Basically inspecting Arches, all subframe and suspension parts

 

[Djw John]

I thought it was @Middo that bodied the k4m way back in the day

 

[celgt4]

Weight is the enemy of a competition car. Strip every ounce of weight out of it. Drill the spot welds of every excess bracket and remove them. Take the interiors out of the doors etc etc. 120bhp will not be competitive anymore but if you get the weight out you will stand a better chance. Saying that I drove a Diahatsu Cuore on mull this year with about 70bhp. She weighed 650kgs and wasn't the slowest car. My clio rally car build starts Saturday

 

[Tomo3292]

Weight is the enemy of a competition car. Strip every ounce of weight out of it. Drill the spot welds of every excess bracket and remove them. Take the interiors out of the doors etc etc. 120bhp will not be competitive anymore but if you get the weight out you will stand a better chance. Saying that I drove a Diahatsu Cuore on mull this year with about 70bhp. She weighed 650kgs and wasn't the slowest car. My clio rally car build starts Saturday

Apologises mate forgot to mention it's fully stripped out, and had a lot of interior cut out, I'm gonna Plate the sunroof aswell at some point.

What you building 172/182 I'm guessing??

Thinking of putting the K4m twingo engine into it, with some cams a remap and 4-2-1 manifold people recon 140-150bhp.

So many different ways to go down. I'm only able to work weekends in it so time is of the essence lol.

Be interested in your build also, keep us posted.

 

[celgt4]

Mine is a 172. I have been threatening to build it for 18 months and now starting it. if i could offer any advice itwould be... get an lsd, best brakes and the softest tyres. No matter what power it has it goes through a rubber contact patch the size of a credit card

 

[Tomo3292]

So yesterday I removed the wings, to inspect the arches, not too bad one the whole shell is really strong and no rust at all.

Just looking to remove the suspension, springs, ARB, subframe, and hubs to start with. Then will be treating these items and potentially powder coating them.

All of these items will be either getting rebuilt or replaced.

What suspension bush inserts do people use, need something stiff and reliable.


Also looking at potentially getting another K4m engine with low mileage and rebuilding it. Installing CAT CAMS, lightened flywheel, sorting the inlet, and having a head overhaul to include new valves and a bit of porting.

Something reliable with around the 140bhp will see me happy!

 

[Tomo3292]

This was the state of play end of the weekend got a fair bit done however. Started to hit a few rusty nuts and bolts halting progress

 

[Tomo3292]

Bit more progress tonight on the old girl!
Air con completely removed.
Alternator removed
Radiator removed
Engine drained of fluids, so hopefully within the next week or two when my engine crane arrives I'll have it out for a rebuild!

Basically the whole front end will get inspected and mostly replaced!

I'm struggling to find the engine code came across a sticker tonight but that's about it, checked all the usual places!

I'm wondering if I can get a different shifter as there's a lot of play in this one, and will have to much throw.

Also looking for an Air con delete kit! Are these available for the clio mk2 k4m??

 

[Tomo3292]

A bit more work done today, removed the left hand side hub, all coolant hoses.

Looking at a few possible different routes at this time!
Do I go for a quaife LSD, do I go for a full engine rebuild.
Do I remove ABS and go full braided fuel and break lines inside the car?
if so can I just replace master cylinder and run braided lines from the master cylinder??

The plan is to remove the whole front subframe, suspension, engine and box, give the bay a lick of white paint as it's easy to fault find and trace leaks.

This is where I am up to at the moment waiting for my engine crane

 

[Martin_172]

I like the K4M its a cracking engine, like a mini 172 in the way they drive, ours was never the same after a cambelt change so timing is key on them

id be looking to stick the RS version from the twingo in, they rally these engines in the twingo R2 etc so plenty parts.

altho in hindsight probably better to buy a cheap twingo RS!

 

[Tomo3292]

I like the K4M its a cracking engine, like a mini 172 in the way they drive, ours was never the same after a cambelt change so timing is key on them

id be looking to stick the RS version from the twingo in, they rally these engines in the twingo R2 etc so plenty parts.

altho in hindsight probably better to buy a cheap twingo RS!

Asked the question on twingo website to see the compatibility of their clio k4m 1.6 16v engine. As its 133bhp from standard as far as I'm aware

 

[mikekean]

Honestly id do yourself a favour and not mess around with the K4M you will spend endless amounts of money and still have less power than a stock F4R, there is a reason the Sodemo 1600 motors cost something stupid like 50k. Drop an F4R in with some ITB's and you will still be pretty competitive, you wont win your class with a 1600 Clio so you might as well be faster and not winning in a 2.0 at least you will have more fun..

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I have been thinking about this thread (I don't know why!) and I am beginning to lean towards the opinion above.


Are you determined to stay in the 1600 class? The problem is that someone in a boggo Civic already has a huge advantage over you.

I wonder if you might be better just fitting a standard F4R and spending the money you were going to spend on engine tuning on getting @NorthloopCup to do you a Gripper box with short final drive and Megane fifth gear. Of course you would still struggle against the big Escorts, but you might surprise a few people if you can get the weight down as much as possible. Then if you do decide you want to start tuning, you have a wealth of parts available.

@EVOgone has been rallying Clios for a number of years so could probably give you some good advice.

At the end of the day, you should do what makes you happy, as rallying should be about having fun, but it's worth putting some thought into it before you get too far down the road.. I'm rebuilding a FWD RS2000 rally car and, having had the Clio as a road car, I wish I hadn't bothered, as the Escort would be no match for it. Too far in to stop now though. Seriously debating finishing the Escort as cheaply as possible, selling it and just using the Clio instead. A bit mad, but it's a much more capable car.

As I said, do what makes you happy, but it's definitely worth some thought.

 

[Tomo3292]

I have been thinking about this thread (I don't know why!) and I am beginning to lean towards the opinion above.


Are you determined to stay in the 1600 class? The problem is that someone in a boggo Civic already has a huge advantage over you.

I wonder if you might be better just fitting a standard F4R and spending the money you were going to spend on engine tuning on getting @NorthloopCup to do you a Gripper box with short final drive and Megane fifth gear. Of course you would still struggle against the big Escorts, but you might surprise a few people if you can get the weight down as much as possible. Then if you do decide you want to start tuning, you have a wealth of parts available.

@EVOgone has been rallying Clios for a number of years so could probably give you some good advice.

At the end of the day, you should do what makes you happy, as rallying should be about having fun, but it's worth putting some thought into it before you get too far down the road.. I'm rebuilding a FWD RS2000 rally car and, having had the Clio as a road car, I wish I hadn't bothered, as the Escort would be no match for it. Too far in to stop now though. Seriously debating finishing the Escort as cheaply as possible, selling it and just using the Clio instead. A bit mad, but it's a much more capable car.

As I said, do what makes you happy, but it's definitely worth some thought.

Cheers mate for the advice, the only reason being I'm not too clued up on the F4R engine.

What sort of management would I need to change to run this sort of engine??

I'm guessing there's a major difference in set up compared to the K4M.

By changing to an F4R I recon that would probably be a bit to much work for me with the knowledge front!

Guessing you pretty much need an all new front end!

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

I think the easiest approach would just be to buy a ratty 172 and swap the whole front end over. Your car is pretty well stripped now so, if you think about it, you're halfway there already!

 

[Tomo3292]

I think the easiest approach would just be to buy a ratty 172 and swap the whole front end over. Your car is pretty well stripped now so, if you think about it, you're halfway there already!

The only thing putting me off this mate, is the changing of ECUs and the wiring side of life, however seems like the most cost effective route

 

[Stu4372]

Hi Mate,

What championship you planning on competing in? Forest or Tarmac?
Class 4 (1600) is one of the most competitive, if not most competitive class there is. I competed in the SRC champs running a 106 cupcar then M-Sport Fiesta. You will be up agains C2R2's and some very fast civics. Our 106 was running around 185bhp at wheels by end of first year in forest and our mates 106 was upwards of 200 but went up in a ball of flames on mull. We won our class championships down to consistency and pilling £££££££ into developing engine.

Saying that I'm actually looking into building a 2.0 Clio for track/Rally in near future (possibly with S1600) chassis design

 

[massiveCoRbyn]

The only thing putting me off this mate, is the changing of ECUs and the wiring side of life, however seems like the most cost effective route

I would think you could just swap over the whole engine loom etc, but I'm sure someone on here will be able to advise you. I suspect it won't be as hard as it sounds

 

[Twingo 1??]

Seen you thread on 133.net . I am putting some cams and manifold into my 133 and I didn't know if these were of any use to you as you should be able to achieve the power your looking for without spending a fortune on catcams . They will just be going on ebay when they come out if u dont wsnt them.The 133 engine is good in my twingo and think it would do OK in that tune on the stages .
I think you should have some fun in your car and you could always change to a 172 engine easy after you have got to the limits of your car with less power .
I rally a standard 1700 puma and spent good money on the suspension and brakes and got the best I could without braking the bank .It will comfortably out brake most things now and could easily handle 250bhp .

 

[sam JFM]

To echo the advise already given mate,

Don't bother with the 1600, fit the 2.0 engine.

Here is why,

It sounds as though your on a budget, so parts availability is going to be a big thing. There is much more choice for parts using the 2.0 as a base, from engines to suspension (think weight and damping).
I am probably right in thinking that you will want to use this car as much as possible? so maybe taking it on trackdays etc? if that's the case you are going to get bored with the lower power/torque output from the 1600, i used to run a 1400 rally car and that was my problem! obviously this comes back to budget I.e if you have the money to make the 1600 into a screamer then that wont be a problem.

On the rally front, unless you can really pedal a car you are going to find yourself on the back foot class and overall wise against more easily developed 1600 competition. Now this is always going to be a problem no matter what class but realize that a good majority of 1600 cars will be running 150 to 170 upwards Bhp. Using the 2.0 engine you have 170 bhp with most other cars running similar or slightly more (190 - 200).

The thing with rallying is no matter what class there will be someone with more power/better suspension etc etc etc. as you can, within reason do what ever you want. so my point is unless you can spend big money or really drive you are not going to be at the sharp end, therefor by getting the fastest standard car (engine wise) you can will generally mean that you have more fun and get higher up the overall result for less money.

The 2.0 clio is a competitive car, i managed to get 14 O/A in a standard engine'd car with no diff. on that rally i had a 1600 205 pulling away from me on the straights!

if you want to chat about rallying clio's pm me and i will give you my number

 

[Tomo3292]

To echo the advise already given mate,

Don't bother with the 1600, fit the 2.0 engine.

Here is why,

It sounds as though your on a budget, so parts availability is going to be a big thing. There is much more choice for parts using the 2.0 as a base, from engines to suspension (think weight and damping).
I am probably right in thinking that you will want to use this car as much as possible? so maybe taking it on trackdays etc? if that's the case you are going to get bored with the lower power/torque output from the 1600, i used to run a 1400 rally car and that was my problem! obviously this comes back to budget I.e if you have the money to make the 1600 into a screamer then that wont be a problem.

On the rally front, unless you can really pedal a car you are going to find yourself on the back foot class and overall wise against more easily developed 1600 competition. Now this is always going to be a problem no matter what class but realize that a good majority of 1600 cars will be running 150 to 170 upwards Bhp. Using the 2.0 engine you have 170 bhp with most other cars running similar or slightly more (190 - 200).

The thing with rallying is no matter what class there will be someone with more power/better suspension etc etc etc. as you can, within reason do what ever you want. so my point is unless you can spend big money or really drive you are not going to be at the sharp end, therefor by getting the fastest standard car (engine wise) you can will generally mean that you have more fun and get higher up the overall result for less money.

The 2.0 clio is a competitive car, i managed to get 14 O/A in a standard engine'd car with no diff. on that rally i had a 1600 205 pulling away from me on the straights!

if you want to chat about rallying clio's pm me and i will give you my number

That would be brilliant mate thanks a lot.

Ideally small single venues I would look to be doing.

I'll be honest don't know much about the 172 so something I will look into and do my research but it quite clearly makes sense to put that in.

As for engine wise any recommendations CAMS, headwork etc??
Ecu and wiring as mine is a K4m
And lastly as its a phase 2 clio I'm guessing 172 coil overs etc would fit

 

[Tomo3292]

Finally got the engine dropped tonight.

After much hinting managed to find engine code K4M 774.
It felt really strong and pulled well, before I pulled it apart.

Looking and thinking of the best p, cheapest and most reliable route.

At the moment the plan is to sort the suspension out, get it all rebuilt with new parts, re paint the engine bay and sort electrics out a bit.

Learnt a lot in a short space of time.

The next phase will be hopefully to remove the ABS system, replace master cylinder and brake servo, and replace the brake lines inside the car.
I'm looking at running the front each independently from the master cylinder and the rear will be jointed from a single brake pipe like most other rally cars.

Hopefully will be ran through a hydraulic handbrake too!

 

[Tomo3292]

Had a successful evening tonight on the Car.

Front end is pretty much where I want it to be. Looking at prepping the engine bay next for a lick of paint. Looking at doing the whole front end in white, which will include gravel paint under hearth the arches.

Removed all the ABS system and pipe work, which will be replaced by new brake lines and braided hoses from the master cylinder.

Quickly gave the engine bay a wash down as it seemed to accumulate years worth of oil and dirt.

Also managed to remove the engine Loom which will be getting looked at over the upcoming months.

Also managed to remove the whole sunroof which will be getting plated with a aluminium sheet and and waterproof rivets.

All in all a pretty successful evening. Still need to get in contact with @ Sam JFM to decide wether to stick with the K4M or go down the 172 route.

Hopefully by end of March, I'll have a new engine of some sort, coil overs, roll cage, new brakes, braided fuel and brake lines, hydraulic handbrake and a few other bits and pieces.

 

[911lau]

Hello from Romania, nice project I have a few projects under construction with K4M:
Renault Twingo 1.6 16v with :
-133 Twingo camshafts
- new itel manifold
-exhaust manifold SuperSprint 4-2-1
-new exhaust 50mm
- injectors f4r
-Aircon and pump sevo out
-light flywheel dacia logan 1.6 8v +update Sachs Clutch
-custom remap
-Custom gearbox jb3

Dacia Logan st 1.6 16V:
-Clio RS exhaust manifold PH1 4-1
-new exhaust 50 mm
-133 camshafts
- inlet manifold 133
-60 mm body throttel Clio RS PH1
-light flywheel dacia logan 1.6 8v +update Sachs Clutch
-custom remap

 

[Tomo3292]

Hello from Romania, nice project I have a few projects under construction with K4M:
Renault Twingo 1.6 16v with :
-133 Twingo camshafts
- new itel manifold
-exhaust manifold SuperSprint 4-2-1
-new exhaust 50mm
- injectors f4r
-Aircon and pump sevo out
-light flywheel dacia logan 1.6 8v +update Sachs Clutch
-custom remap
-Custom gearbox jb3

Dacia Logan st 1.6 16V:
-Clio RS exhaust manifold PH1 4-1
-new exhaust 50 mm
-133 camshafts
- inlet manifold 133
-60 mm body throttel Clio RS PH1
-light flywheel dacia logan 1.6 8v +update Sachs Clutch
-custom remap

Good evening mate nice to see what you have done there!

I like the look of the inlet plenum and f4r injectors.

I think this is going to be similar as to what I want to achieve. At the moment my head is saying use the 133 twingo and modify it to include, new high profile camshafts, lightened flywheel, larger throttle body, new exhaust manifold and system plus a remap. Hoping to achieve 150-169bhp.

Then there's my heart on the other hand saying to use a 172 and develop it with throttle bodies. Maybe that's something for the futurre.

However no matter what route I go down be good to get reliability 1st, followed by driver ability and then power!

This for me has been the best way to learn, start off by stripping a base car you learn so much.

 

[Tomo3292]

So this is the route I think I'm going to go down now!

Main reason being I feel pretty at home with the K4M engine and know very little about the F4R!

It's the Twingo 133 Engine and with some Cat Cams, Exhaust System and Remap I've seen proven results of 163bhp. That would be more than surface for me to be honest!

Granted it might take the best part of 2500 quid to achieve but it's still a project in itself I guess!

As to which gearbox to use I tink I will keep the K4M and maybe look at getting a LSD for it.

I've also seen this little beauty!

Not too sure how it would work with a FBW throttle body, however I'm sure there's a way around things!

Originally I was going to buy the bolt in Cage from the group guy on here, however I think I'm going to get them nine bay sorted 1st and then install the cage in the summer!

 

[Tomo3292]

Tonight was a good constructive session on the car!

All the dash removed and I beagn to strip the loom as much as I possibly could. Everything went including Airbags, all redundant wiring, electric wiring for the windows, wing mirrors, all the central locking loom.

Next up is to sort the engine loom and see what I can get rid of!

So far so good! Every thing tested and working nicely!

Below you can clearly see how much has been removed so far!
Also this forum has helped me a lot along with the haynes manual and wiring diagrams.

Will be hoping to to pick up a full cage soon to install. Along with finishing the the preping of the engine bay, and inside the car!!

 

[LeeRS]

For £2500 you could probably buy a very good Clio 1*2 which is almost sorted for track/rally bar a few modifications. You would be putting out more power immediately. Seems like a no brainer to me.

You day your not clued up on the f4r but you will learn like you have with the one you have stripped down.

Its not all that different to work on.

For what you have spent already (including the price of the car) + the £2500 for that engine you could possibly be pushing on for an ITB'd Clio pushing ~210bhp.

Have a word with yourself

 

[Fraser.J.]

For £2500 you could probably buy a very good Clio 1*2 which is almost sorted for track/rally bar a few modifications. You would be putting out more power immediately. Seems like a no brainer to me.

You day your not clued up on the f4r but you will learn like you have with the one you have stripped down.

Its not all that different to work on.

For what you have spent already (including the price of the car) + the £2500 for that engine you could possibly be pushing on for an ITB'd Clio pushing ~210bhp.

Have a word with yourself

Why don't you have a word with yourself? It's this guys money and his project, he can do as he pleases.

If he goes to an f4r hell then be in s higher class and having to spend even more money to try and be competitive. The money he is spending now might seem a lot against a 172 but for what he's doing it is most likely the cheap option.

 

[LeeRS]

So everyone else is wrong?

Don't ask for advice if you don't want to take it.
Why would it be a higher class when people are already running that power in the same class?

Buy that engine for all I care. Just seems a waste of money to me.
I'm not saying not to do it, just have a think about it before ploughing 2.5k into an engine alone.