Kenny's Kup

[Kenny.s]

hey mate,
coming along very very nicely, genuinely so jealous of your fabrication, especially after trying to give it a go myself, Some truly unique ideas and parts going on/ being fabricated. The switch panel is beautiful and the strut tops a work of art. Can i ask what your thoughts are with the diffuser? You may know i was looking at a diffuser set-up but unsure what / how yet, send it over pm if you like.

Cheers man,

I've not really had a proper look at the diffuser yet, so far i've just been trying to sort out the underside to allow it to be done. If possible I would like to go from the edge of the floor to the bumper in one piece, thinking the rear axle should sit high enough to allow this when it's sat on the deck but i'll need to check how far it drops when jacking the car up to change wheels etc
There are some universal fibrglass ones that might work or i'll probably make something from aluminium composite sheet or sign board as it's otherwise known.

 

[aldo_87]

I worked in there for about 5 years so I guess some of it has probably stuck, never really noticed, what have you spotted lol

Describing things as "gucci" was one of them. Also the pussers ball pein hammer in one of the photos lol

 

[Kenny.s]

Long over due an update!

Once again progress has been painfully slow of late, not helped this time home by having to got to Manchester for a 5 day plc course :dapprove:

I've been picking away at various jobs.

When I moved the steering column down and centralised it to the seat position I knew I would have to make up a complete new steering shaft. I initially tried it with a single UJ as shown a few pages back, however due to the high angle the joint was operating it, this resulted in rather irregular steering output! so it was back to the drawing board, and a double UJ was the only practical solution I could come up with. Using 2 UJ's back to back effectively creates a constant velocity joint.

But, and there's always a but! using a double UJ means the lower section of the column would now require a bearing to support it, took some time to come up with a solution I was happy with, quite tricky to visualise how to support something thats currently floating in mid air.

Support bracket being made

In position

About as good as my welding gets at the moment, no prefect by a long way but considering I only really started about 3 months ago, I'm quite pleased with it

Support bar in place

I got another bearing the same as I used on the upper part of the column housing, lug welded on and bearing pressed in

Missed a step here, but I welded 2 M8 nuts onto the lug, trimmed it back and then offered everything up to the support bar

The hard part is getting the angle of the upper and lower column split evenly across the 2 UJ's, if one UJ has more misalignment on it than the other it defeats the purpose.

Near enough finished

Filler cap/neck, made by the same guy who did the tank

As the tank is now inside the car it needs to be firewalled, to avoid having to remove any panels etc to refuel i'm going to run a pipe from the tank, through the inner wheel arch (under the firewall) and out to the filler.


I'm not really ready for bodywork yet but my mate said he had some spare time and offered to come up and get a few things primed.

Since I dont need locks anymore
Also filled the locks on the doors but no pics of that

The welds were ground flush, smoothed with some filler

We then put the shell onto the bogey I made a few months ago and pushed it outside

Doors, tailgate, bonnet and wings all primed and ready for paint

Before I went down to Manchester I started on the firewall for the tank so hoping to get going on that tomorrow.

 

[Nafoff]

thats some very very nice work on the column, fair play, great visualisation.
however the more you progress the more it annoys me with my total lack of progression....ha

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Kenny your fabrication skills are ridiculous, the support for the steering colum is just amazing, simple idea but yet the solution to a seriously complex problem. Again I salute your incredible amount of talent.

 

[Kenny.s]

cheers mate.

Made some progress on the firewall for the tank.
I'm conscious of keeping all this as light as possible, I know what the standard tank set up weighs so I'm using that as a marker.
This set up will be a bit heavier, recon about 3-4kgs at current estimate but since it's got a swirl pot I'll be able to run with just a few litres of fuel (if needs be) for sprints which will result in a much bigger overall weight saving.

I started off mounting the main cross bar which is a bit of 1.5"x1" aluminium box section, the tank will be partly suspended from this hence the size. Dont have any pictures of that in progress.
Next up was to make some small infill sections to follow the shape of the inner wheel arch, I spot welded some thin strips of steel to the wheel arch which the ally bit will then be pop riveted to.

The ally sheet is only 1mm so had to put a wee stiffener along the seem

Did the same on the other side, then cut another bit of 1mm ally for the middle

I'll mark out and drill the holes in it tomorrow.
Still debating whether or not to attach the middle bit and then paint it at the same time the inside of the car gets done, or remove and refit afterwards. Maybe need to speak to my mater and see what he thinks, doesnt really effect things just now though.


Tank sat back in position, also made the hole for the filler pipe

The rear section will come back to the piece of metal running across the boot, and will be removable to allow access, so it would make sense to use some sort of quick release fasteners but I need to ensure that it still makes a good seal.

Quite a time consuming job but now that ive got something to work off i'm hoping the rest might go a little quicker.

 

[JackJack]

Cracking work as always!

 

[Sam]

Just read every page. Amazing car mate.

I cant wait to see the end result!! Keep it up!

 

[northy]

very nice - some great work being done here.

What was the price for the work being cut on the water jet vs CNC ?

 

[frenchthing]

Skin pins!! every good fabricator has some, lol.. Prefer them to cleco's tbh...

Bulkhead looks good!!

 

[dmallett]

Skin pins!! every good fabricator has some, lol.. Prefer them to cleco's tbh...

Bulkhead looks good!!

Have to agree cleco's are nasty. The cleco clamps are so useful however.


I love this project and the detail that goes into, top work!!

 

[Kenny.s]

Cheers for the comments guys

very nice - some great work being done here.
What was the price for the work being cut on the water jet vs CNC ?

TBH I never bothered to get an actual quote for having the strut tower plates CNC'd, I had a chat to my machine shop guy about it and he said that what I paid to have them cut on a waterjet was quite a bit cheaper than he could have machined them.

Skin pins!! every good fabricator has some, lol.. Prefer them to cleco's tbh...

Bulkhead looks good!!

They're great wee things, should have bought some years ago! ordered some more today lol

Have to agree cleco's are nasty. The cleco clamps are so useful however.

I love this project and the detail that goes into, top work!!

I've seen the clamps but dont have any of them as yet, might need to add that to the next shoping list.

 

[Kenny.s]

I didnt think mounting the tank was going to be such a pain in the ass! took way longer than I had hoped to come up with something I was happy with, been working away at this since I came home but I forgot the camera up to the workshop so believe it or not this is 2-3 days worth!

Support frame made from 20x10x1.2 quite light but still sturdy enough to do the job

Sitting in position, held in by x4 bolts through the floor, it actually stiffened the floor up quite a lot!

Tank fitted
The 2 bolts that go through the ally cross bar are into slotted holes so when the clamps are tightened up it pulls everything together, then the top bolts can be done up.

Also made a start on the filler neck

I'll need to get these two bits welded together and also get a flange welded to the pipe so it can be secured and sealed to the inner wheel arch

 

[NorthloopCup]

Do you know Lar's and alex at Ah fabrications kenny?

 

[Kenny.s]

Wouldnt say I know them as such, but I've spoken to Lars a few times now since I initially emailed him the design for the tank. Seems like a really nice guy, and his welding is rather good too!

 

[crossy rs200]

just found this, just want to say lovely project, fantastic skills and attention to detail. well done! Joe

 

[NorthloopCup]

Wouldnt say I know them as such, but I've spoken to Lars a few times now since I initially emailed him the design for the tank. Seems like a really nice guy, and his welding is rather good too!

I used to know them very well! Lar's fabricated my entire fuel system, a tubular turbo manifold and various other bits and pieces! The guy is a proper legend tbh! And yeah the welding they do is epic!

 

[Kenny.s]

Yet another change of plan! No wonder it's taking me ages to get anything done on this car. I should know by now that as soon as I start to get doubts in my head about something I should pay heed!
Although the tank was in and the firewall well on it's way to being finished, I had been having doubts about whether or not I was happy with the tank hanging out the back of the car. When I initially decided to put the tank there I had hoped to keep everything inside the cage but as I went along it became clear that idea wasn't going to work, I should have stopped at that point.

So the alternative and probably better place to put the tank is through the rear seat area, seen quite a few cars done like this and it's definitely the way to go, only issue I have is whether or not it's allowed for the class I intend to compete in since its cutting a hole in the chassis, so I'm waiting on the go ahead from the eligibilty scruitineer.

Hoping Lars can modify the old tank if not I'll be looking at an expensive mistake

 

[M4D M4X]

WOW not what i was expecting from a project, I'm very impressed with the amount of attention to detail and your fabrication work it's top notch hats off to you for the amount of work gone into it so far.

Feel your pain with the fuel tank issue that's a very expensive mistake if you decide and able to go down the other route like i have.

What class are you thinking of entering?

 

[Kenny.s]

Planning to run in B2, modified saloons.
I got word back from the eligibilty scruitineer and unfortunately cutting the floor and welding a box in to hold a tank isn't allowed, falls foul of the unitary chassis regulation.
I'll need to work with the space under the floor and possibly use the access hole for the oe tank pump and sender unit. Not likely I'll be able to modify the existing tank though, prob need to start from scratch.

 

[G3 NYX]

Planning to run in B2, modified saloons.
I got word back from the eligibilty scruitineer and unfortunately cutting the floor and welding a box in to hold a tank isn't allowed, falls foul of the unitary chassis regulation.
I'll need to work with the space under the floor and possibly use the access hole for the oe tank pump and sender unit. Not likely I'll be able to modify the existing tank though, prob need to start from scratch.

Could you put it under where the spare wheel was? Move some weight to the back?

 

[JackJack]

Could you put it under where the spare wheel was? Move some weight to the back?

Then it would be outside the cage which he doesn't want as it will be unprotected in the case of a rear impact.

 

[Kenny.s]

It's be an intersting few weeks!

Went away up north to a wee island for a holiday with the mrs the other week there, had a cracking time in more than one sense! managed to bust 2 ribs on the last night, lets just say it involved drink and falling haha.

When I got back home and made it up to the workshop I thought long and hard about what to do with the fuel tank. I spoke to the scruitineer again and tried approaching things from a different angle but he was still against cutting a hole in the floor to sink a tank into. His main reason being that they are now getting more and more protests in all classes and felt that this might put me at risk of a protest if I wanted to run in B2. He completely agreed that it wasnt in a structral part of the car but when the MSA rules are applied, it would fall foul of them.

I spent about 2 days with a tape measure and countless bits of wood, making templates but no matter what I did, trying to fit something under the seat pan and fit the pumps, filters etc was a nightmare.
I spoke to Lars about it, said if I could draw it he could make it, I have no doubt what so ever that he could make just about anything, what I wasnt so sure about was how well I could draw it.

Eventually I had to accept that an alloy tank under there just wasnt going to happen (least not just now) and decided to resort back to the std tank. This isn't ideal as it has a knock on effect on what I had planned for the underfloor of the car but given the circumstances I felt I didnt really have an alternative.

Using a std tank for sprints and hills isn't ideal, the alloy tank would of allowed me to use 2-3 litres of fuel but running that amount in the std tank is a different story. Even with a swirl pot the lift pump will be struggling to get anything. I've come up with a plan for this which I will work on later but mean time the focus is to get the car ready for paint before the weather gets any worse!

With the decision made I then moved onto finding a location for the swirl pot, filters, pumps etc and started on an enclosure for it, slightly different approach this time.

Steel angle section from Imperial panels, very handy, comes in various sizes and awg

Took a wee while to get the shape but eventually got it pretty close, nothing that a bit of sealer wont sort

I then tacked it on every few inches and sealed it up.

After a bit of trial and error, I settled on the layout for everything

I've since finished all the brackets and it's now primed but I went and left the camera at the workshop tonight.

I'm going to make a fibreglass lid for it, but again that can wait a wee while, the bits that are there will get painted when the inside of the car gets done. Lars is going to modify the top of the swirl pot so that the bleed off is horizontal to allow the lid to be made a bit shallower.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Could you not mount a small alloy fuel tank inside the original tank? That way it looks totally standard from the outside, but gives you the ability to run a minimal amount of fuel. Assuming of course the car will be used for sprints and not tintops stuff mate.

 

[MG cup]

Top work as usual kenny, I would just get rid of standard tank and make mounts for an alloy tank underneath the car to whatever size you require, keeps centre of gravity down and allows yo to use the setup you have just made.

Then get a kevlar wrap to toughen things up, ian speedy just got a kevlar wrap on his standard car and wasnt too expensive.

Whats the 5 things you have in the box. swirl pot, pump, 2 x filter?? and regulator?

 

[Kenny.s]

Could you not mount a small alloy fuel tank inside the original tank? That way it looks totally standard from the outside, but gives you the ability to run a minimal amount of fuel. Assuming of course the car will be used for sprints and not tintops stuff mate.

My plan is to make up an alloy collector that drops down inside the tank in place of the standard pump/sender unit. It uses x3 one way check valves to allow fuel into the collector pot but won't let it back out, that way the lift pump stands a better chance of being able to do it's job. Injection pumps dont like being run dry or sucking on air all the time hence why I dont want to use the standard intank pump.

Top work as usual kenny, I would just get rid of standard tank and make mounts for an alloy tank underneath the car to whatever size you require, keeps centre of gravity down and allows yo to use the setup you have just made.

Then get a kevlar wrap to toughen things up, ian speedy just got a kevlar wrap on his standard car and wasnt too expensive.

Whats the 5 things you have in the box. swirl pot, pump, 2 x filter?? and regulator?

Thats just it though, with the side exit, I only had the right hand side for a tank, I tried to come up with a decent size tank but it was too complex a shape and potentially vulnerable to getting damaged should I take a trip across a gravel trap. I appreciate I could make a gaurd for it but it all adds to the complexity of it and it's more brackets and fabrication time.
At the moment it just makes more sense to ditch the side exit (as much as I liked it) and stick the standard tank back in and get moving with other things, already spent way too long on this as it is.

I'm going to put some baffle foam in the standard tank to try and help limit the amount the fuel sloshes about, I can just get my arm in through the top of the tank so I recon I should be able to reach most of the way to the far side with some bits of foam cut to the right sizes. That and the collector pot should do the trick, if there's still a problem with running low on fuel I can revisit this later.

Swirl pot, Facet lift pump, pre filter, Walbro high pressure pump, post filter.

 

[MG cup]

Ah right okay, I thought it was your diffuser you was looking to squeeze in, I forgot about your side exit.
I will revisit the fuel system once car is complete, phase 2's tend not to suffer with starvation but my plan is racing so I won't be running on fumes.

I will be doing the same with the foam if I do sprints/hill climbs, have you seen the price of the tank foam too , no need to cut to shape with the stuff I have seen, just 2" cubes or so and pack them in.

 

[Kenny.s]

I was partly to do with the diffuser, putting the exhaust out the side cleans up the underside of the car before the rear bumper.

I'm not worried about flling the whole tank with foam, just enough to stop the fuel being able to slosh the full width of the tank.

 

[M4D M4X]

I think i might have come up with a solution to your problem so bare with me.

The solution i've thought of will allow you too.
1) Keep the tank in the cage'd area (where you'd cut the floor for the box)
2) Keep the alloy tank saving you spending £££'s on a replacement (would need modifying slightly)
3) Giving you loads of room underneath to do your diffuser and side exit exhaust.
4) Having the position of the tank like this will allow the fuel to sit to the lowest point under acceleration so no surge.
Downside though.
1) Slightly higher centre of gravity (only slightly compared to the sunken tank)
2) You'll have to move the box section where the pumps are located (I've also got a idea for that too (1))

Ok so the idea,
Turn the alloy tank upside down and face the triangle'd type to the front, you'd have to modify the tank again (baffles,filler neck).
And the boxed idea, keep the designed box idea you made recently but make it wider and centralised and weld brackets to the corners so you can bolt the tank in aswel as the pumps and swirl pot.

And then finally you'd have to make a cover for it for the regulations.

Hope this helps in a good way and hope it's not confusing.
If you'd need a drawing to see what i mean then i'd gladly draw one up.

 

[Kenny.s]

Appreciate the input mate, turning the tank upside down was one of the ideas I looked at, by pure chance the shape is it's actually quite close to fitting the shape of the seat pan.

However this is what I came up against;

Although it may not appear so, the amount of modifications the tank would need if it was turned upside down just wasn't worth it, it would need one side cut off and remade, there was a boss on the back for a low level warning light which would obviously be in the wrong place when upside down. Cutting these bits out the tank and rewelding everything would end up looking cack imho.

It would also end up quite high and the size of the lid needed to cover it would look a bit daft, I did mock it up with some sheets of ally.

Filling the tank would be awkward, to comply with the MSA regs, the filler neck/cap would need to be covered, ie inside the firewalled enclosure so reaching in the back of the car through the roll cage with a 20ltr jerry can would be a pita o
An external filler somehow plumbed into the tank would be an option but again the pipe would need to be enclosed ie double walled inside the car.

When I weighed it all up, it was easier to put the standard tank and filler neck back in and put it down to experience

The alloy tank is for sale if you know anyone that might be interested, not looking for much, just rather see it get used that sit here and gather dust.

 

[M4D M4X]

Oh didn't realise that you had to cover the fuel neck/cap aswel stupid MSA rule imo, thank god my car ain't for race use MSA would have a field day once done lol.
such a shame to see all the hard work you've already put into the tank/cover/brackets and now having to ditch it all , after your reply i was going to suggest having a tank underneath the seat pan but swede cup has already suggested it.

I'll ask my mate that's also building a track car if he might be intrested in buying a alloy tank but can't promise anything though.

Oh if you need a standard fuel tank/pump/neck to mess about with give me a shout i won't be needing mine all i ask for is you to cover the postage.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Fuel Cell 003 by NorthloopCup, on Flickr

This is the fuel tank i designed and lars fabricated for me in one of my previous projects!

Astra Gsi fuel system by NorthloopCup, on Flickr

The atl collector does a excellent job and has the trap doors your describing of fitting in yours.

 

[Kenny.s]

Oh didn't realise that you had to cover the fuel neck/cap aswel stupid MSA rule imo, thank god my car ain't for race use MSA would have a field day once done lol.
such a shame to see all the hard work you've already put into the tank/cover/brackets and now having to ditch it all , after your reply i was going to suggest having a tank underneath the seat pan but swede cup has already suggested it.

I'll ask my mate that's also building a track car if he might be intrested in buying a alloy tank but can't promise anything though.

Oh if you need a standard fuel tank/pump/neck to mess about with give me a shout i won't be needing mine all i ask for is you to cover the postage.

Yeah, afraid so, most of the hurdles i've had to over come are due to MSA rules, or more so the class rules, I could do some of the things to I wanted but I would get moved up to the next class where your against some serious machinery, any chance of picking up some points or getting placed in a class would be a non starter so i'm stuck with complying with B2 rules.

As I said earlier, just need to put it down to experience and move on, most of the materials for the firewall can be re-used so all's not lost there.
If you mention to your mate and see if he's interested, if not I'll probably end up sticking it on ebay and see what I can get for it.

If your sure you dont want your standard tank, pump and filler neck that would be very handy, would you be able to box it all up and let me know sizes etc? I'm happy to arrange a courier to collect it.

Fuel Cell 003 by NorthloopCup, on Flickr

This is the fuel tank i designed and lars fabricated for me in one of my previous projects!

Astra Gsi fuel system by NorthloopCup, on Flickr

The atl collector does a excellent job and has the trap doors your describing of fitting in yours.

That looks like a very nice set up, Lars certainly is good at what he does.

The ATL collector would be ideal but I dont think that'll fit through the top of the standard tank. I had looked at using little round check valves, Fuel Safe in America do them, and Pro-Alloy also sell their own version, about £15 a piece, recon I can get three of them in a small round collector but as I mentioned earlier I'm not going to focus too much time on this just now, I can do that later in the year or draw it up when I'm back at work. Priority just now is to get the car ready for paint.

 

[Kenny.s]

Small update,

Spoke to my mate about getting the shell painted and the plan is to go for it next weekend so I need to finalise as much as I can inside the car and then get everything rubbed down and ready for paint. There are bound to be things I forget about and will have to sort later but I cant keep putting it off, need to get it painted soon if there's any chance of it being ready next year.

With the deadline set I got on with fabricating a few things.

Heel rest thingy,

Trimmed some bits of 18awg angle to follow the shape of the floor

Tacked them on and then cut a bit of ally plate to fit

Sealed the seems up and primed,

Then used some of the skinpins to hold the plate in position while drilling into the brackets, holes countersunk to take 3mm pop rivets

I've got a bit of skateboard grip tape to go on it once it's ready to be fitted permanently.


Small bracket for the battery isolator

I removed the standard foot rest ages ago as had I intended to use the Tilton floor mounted pedal box but as I'm now back to standard pedals I figured a foot
rest was prob not a bad idea. Since you can buy just about every single part for these cars I thought it would be a fairly easy case of phoning my mate at the local dealer to source one, after 2-3 days including him sending emails to Renault, turns out the foot rest bracket is part of the shell and not available separately. I raked through the pile of scrap outside, found loads of bits I'd cut off but not the foot rest, dooh! Time to make one then.....

Not got many pictures of it in the making but it's folded up out of 2 bits of 18awg sheet, welded up and then put some holes in it, tacked on in 5 or 6 places, sealed round the seems and painted, turned out pretty good imho

Some of you may feel this next bit isn't necessary but after I saw how much the bulkhead flexed pressing the brake and or leaning on the steering wheel slightly that was justification enough for me. The fact I've removed the upper bulkhead may have contributed to some of the flex but with the "X" onto the towers and now this bulkhead "X" the front of the car has to be stiffer and I doubt it's any heavier but just to make sure I took another 0.5kg out of the front crossmember

The total for all the bits added to do this was 1.2kgs.

Not got many pictures, but the "X" is 25x1 t45 tube and then a bit of 40x1.2 t45 sliced in half and welded on above where the pedals sit which also picks up where one of my steering column brackets is on the inside. There is some plate welded between the 25mm tube and bulkhead around the hole where the servo sits. And to finish off any bit of the bulkhead that touched the "X" was bonded to it with some Tiger seal.

All in it's made quite a difference, (welding wasnt finished in this pic)

I've got to make a bracket for the ECU, drill a few holes for fuel lines and then it's time to get sanding!

 

[Nafoff]

great work kenny, some real thought going into various fabrication, great to here its almost at the prep/paint side of things, really moving along

 

[northy]

the bulkhead moves alot on the Mk1 when you press the brake pedal....

Did you using MIG or Stick to weld that bracket on for the Battery isolator ? Lovely!!!!

 

[MG cup]

Looking good, your tempting me to cut out my bulkhead and add in the strut stiffeners supplied with my cage.

Your about 2 metre's of T45 away from having a space framed Clio lol.

 

[Kenny.s]

great work kenny, some real thought going into various fabrication, great to here its almost at the prep/paint side of things, really moving along

Cheers, yeah it's getting there, just seems to take forever but I'm hoping once it gets painted that will be a bit of a milestone and help get things moving a bit quicker.

the bulkhead moves alot on the Mk1 when you press the brake pedal....

Did you using MIG or Stick to weld that bracket on for the Battery isolator ? Lovely!!!!

It was MIG, 0.6mm wire, lots of little spots laid down one after the other while the last one is still hot, if you get it right it comes out looking a bit like TIG.

Looking good, your tempting me to cut out my bulkhead and add in the strut stiffeners supplied with my cage.

Your about 2 metre's of T45 away from having a space framed Clio lol.

LOL, one day perhaps

If you do decide to cut the upper bulkhead out, might be worth getting in touch with the eligibilty scruitineer as it is between the wheel centres so technically classed as part of the unitary chassis regulation. I doubt they will have an issue, they let me do it so precedent has been set but it's better to keep them informed about stuff like that rather than potentially having an issue when you turn up for your first meeting.

 

[Kenny.s]

It's been a tedious few days but the inside of the car is almost ready for paint. I dont want to think how many hours I've spent rubbing down primer and spot priming numerous wee bits here there and everywhere but the end is in sight.
I've hoovered and blown it out with the airline about 10 times to try and get all the dust and crap out, it's gradually getting less each time but still needs a few more goes before it's good enough to paint.

How it currently sits

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Looking good Kenny, can't wait to see it painted and then built back up.