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Kenny's Kup



M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Another G/box oil failure, same case. About time they grounded them all and found this dodgy batch of parts. Thank f**k im not flying on choppers just now.

Looks like a scaffolding holding your engine in but its looking good? Why don't you just run 197/200 cam position sensor on the rocker cover?
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
It would appear the shaft that's failed on this one was from a different batch from the one that caused the Bond flight to ditch back in May, iirc there were 10 parts in that batch and all subsequently removed from service so it looks like a more widespread issue than first thought.
Apparently there are also questions being raised over the downloading of the flashdrive containing the condition monitoring data, ie it's not been done as frequently as it should.


Yeah, tubes all over the place lol, but believe it or not overall it's come out a few kgs lighter than the standard set up.

I knew the later engines had a cam sensor but I was under the impression it went in through the front of the head casting? Above No1 intake
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Ahrite, just put 2 and 2 together when I heard it was a gearbox lubrication failure on the radio and was under the impression that the "bad batch" were still in service as they were unsure of exact location of some. They spend long enough in shetland downloading data, you would think the pilots would be all over it flying them day in and day out. Nieve of me I know but not a bad payday for getting your toes wet!!

Look good whatever the weight.

As far as I know its through the cam cover. Someone on here had issues while fitting cams, I think it was iceman. Catcams sent out cams with the phase ring still attached to cams, apparently the 2 cars share cams and you just remove the grub screwed ring.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
I was lead to believe they were going to download it after every flight but it would appear its just been daily, could be wrong, it'll all come out in the investigation.

I remember iceman getting cams sent out with the phase ring on them and indeed that was the case that the cams are the same.
Either way if it's through the cam cover or the head it's not a 2 minute job to fit one to an earlier head.
What I had in mind was something on the exhaust pulley, doesn't have to me that accurate, the ecu i'm using can be told to look between x & y degrees for phase signal. For the time I retain the standard free pulleys, it just means I'll need to bring everything round to the same point before doing the cams bolts up, or tweak the map to tell it to look in a slightly different place for the phase signal.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Im not sure but the few flights I was on recently, they stopped off in Shetland to download data, im sure it would be an after flight check or it would be if I was a pilot.

Swapping 197 cam cover over shouldn't be too much an issue to swap over, you would need the cover and head matched mind you and I know your keeping things simple just now. What's the purpose of a cam timing sensor when there's a CPS on our engines, you will be going fixed timing (vernier pulleys) by the sounds of it and I cant see a purpose for it.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
Swapping cam covers would be a bit too much work, getting the face skimmed and the journals line bored would probably cost more than a head.

The crank sensor only allows the engine to batch fire both spark and fuel, the standard ecu uses fancy logic/ programming to establish 720 sync without a cam phase sensor. When you go aftermarket ecu you can either run 360 and batch fire or by fitting a sensor you can run 720. Technically it won't produce anymore power but there are advantages and given the choice you would always run an engine like that. I'm not a mapper but the guy who's doing it has advised it's worth doing, I trust him so for the little work involved I'm sure I can get something sorted.
Even if/when it ends up on verniers it'll still be needed.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Fair enough I thought it had something to do with more accurate measurement of the variabl valve timing. It sounds more accurate, most of that has went over my head really lol, I understand wasted spark but I always thought injectors fired at tdc on each cylinders power stroke??

Im wrong about the CPS sensor as well lol, just from seeing the 197 cams I assumed it was in the cam cover.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
In order to fire the injector at the correct time you need to know where the engine is in its cycle though, with only a crank sensor it could be just about to start a power stroke or an induction stroke.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Firing order 1,3,4,2 of your average 4 pot. So what your saying is the engine batch fires 1,3 for one revolution of crank then 4,2 the next revolution or something like that, but with your ecu cam sensor you can have individual firing. I was under the impression the ecu knew exactly where to fire injector each revolution by counting the pulses from the flywheel. Its getting too late to rack my brain lol.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
Your right, it is getting too late for this lol
Just realised one of things I said earlier isn't quite right, knew what I meant but just didn't write it properly.

The crank sensor only tells half the story though, you need two turns of the crank to fire all the cylinders, knowing where the cams are tells you the sequence.
 
N

neil a

ClioSport Club Member
So are you thinking of doing something similar to what they use to do when fitting cosworth managment to RS turbos , trigger wheel attatched to to the cam pulley then a sensor bracket mounted off of the head.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
No more progress at the moment, still offshore but hopefully going home by boat tomorrow!

Will get on with a few things when I get back, one of the first being a wee road trip to collect my gearbox from Gripper, complete with lsd and straight cut dog gear kit ;)
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Very nice Kenny, jealous. No missing gears know lol or you'll have a jc5 puzzle to play with ;). Did gripper do you a custom kit, they didn't/don't offer anything off the shelf afaik.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
I would have loved a sequential but they dont come up very often, although Daverb (think thats his user name) has or had a complete set up for sale recently but he was wanting way more than what the Gripper diff and gearkit cost. Also, repair and rebuild on the gripper kit should be a bit more reasonable.

This is also partly why I'm not wanting to put a fancy engine in it until i've had some seat time in it! If i get 1st instead of 3rd on a std engine no big deal lol

They had a batch of 10 kits made, I enquired about it ages ago and they had 9 left so figured there was no desperate hurry. Fortuantely I phoned back a few months later to ask a question about it and they said they only had 1 left! so I bit the bullet there and then and said I'd have it. They have all the tooling etc to make them but would need sufficient interest to run off another batch to make it cost effective for them.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
I'll see how yours lasts ;), I know people that have had troubles with dog boxes, can get expensive. Mostly on bigger power though.

Yeah Dave was out yesterday at KH, he is thinking of stripping his racer, box is the older stsda and hasn't been overhauled in a while, car seemed to go well!
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
lol
The kits they've supplied and built so far seem to be doing well.
There's far less to go wrong in a dog box, as long as you change gear properly and dont mash the dogs up it should need less attention than a syncro box in competition use where you're likely to beat syncros and eventually wear them out.

I know many will think spending money on a gearkit for the JC5 is pi**ing it up the wall but the way I looked at it, Gripper aren't going to spend time and money developing a gearkit for it if they thought it was a waste of time. I know standard ones burst all the time and many blame it on the cases flexing.
I accept virtually all gearbox cases will flex to some extent but by an amount thats virtually undetectable, or certainly not enough to cause a failure imho. For a case to flex to the point where it affects the mesh of the gears causing them to break? I have my doubts on that.
Far more likely that the gears themselves are simply not strong enough, bit breaks off and goes into the mesh = casing burst!

Time will tell, if it breaks you'll hear about it on here.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Oh I have no doubt it will be a top piece of kit I'm not saying that, money well spent to further strengthen your g/box. Would like to see if you have any small niggles/things you do/don't get on with about it. Cant see the casings being much of a problem with a realistic 20% torque increase. Synchro's and bearings are all I have heard in general, got to be a few catastrophic failures out there. Operator error (so easy done in the heat of the moment) and too much torque. No need to worry when N/A.
 
2

2Damnsly Andy

  Clio 172
Kenny.s said:
I was supposed to be at work by now but with all the EC225's still grounded the backlog of fights is getting bigger by the day. Was due out on Wednesday, which was put back until this morning, I was half way to Aberdeen when they phoned and told me to turn round, earliest I'm going is now Saturday.
Click to expand...

A lad I know flies the chopper's, he's been sat on his jacksie for about two weeks. Moving to Oz soon to fly choppers over there.
 
JamesT87

JamesT87

  RS2'd Trophy
Kenny, As ive said before this project rocks!!

I would have gone for a honda engine though over the F4r if I was going into this much depth.

Keep going chap!
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
Cheers mate. Need to stick with a Renault engine for the class I'm entering. Who knows what the future holds though ;)
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
Lol, not overly excited just now, it's just a lump of metal, but if it does what it says on the tin, that might bring on a wee grin.

The casing was pretty grotty when it went down so it's cleaned up rather well, can still see some of the areas where there corrosion was setting in but it's miiles better than it was.

IMG_0216.jpg


Here's hoping this doesnt develop the same issue that Mark had

IMG_0217.jpg


IMG_0218.jpg


Couldnt resist having a wee peek at 5th ;)

IMG_0220.jpg


IMG_0221.jpg


It's now wrapped up in a sheet and tucked away until it's time for it to go in the car.

Hoping to get some more painting done next weekend, just waiting so hear back from my mate on what day he's free. Plan is to get the engine bay and the underside of the car done.
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
I was chatting to John when I picked it up and he said they are definitely thinking about making more but it would need to be 20 kits which is a fair outlay for them so if enough folk express an interest that would help them decide.
 
BIGASH

BIGASH

Kenny.s said:
I was chatting to John when I picked it up and he said they are definitely thinking about making more but it would need to be 20 kits which is a fair outlay for them so if enough folk express an interest that would help them decide.
Click to expand...
Wow they said 5 when asked earlier in the week lol!

Does look very nice Kenny :)
 
K

Kenny.s

  Audi A6 & 172 Cup
Dog box in a Clio, who made them?

I built a Westfield about 7 or 8 years ago, had a 4spd Quaife dog box in it, awesome thing!
 
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