ktec and their power claims.....

[yeecup]

just been looking on facebook, usual stuff, ktec posting with clio 182 in for i/k and remap showing power graph of 190 bhp and torque 157lb. no other mods apart from exhaust, i questioned these high figures saying the rr cant be right only to be shot down in flames and told how its just been calibrated. these figures would be good for a 438 cammed car never mind one with breathing mods and a map. loads of gullable people on facebook lapping it up as well. rant over.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I actually really like the guys at K-Tec - they've always been great with me. BUT I do have to bite my lip with their facebook postings and power claims LOL

Even worse the 172 that has an induction kit and new exhaust system

Don't know why people bother with throttle bodies and cams, you can get an extra 15-20lbs/ft throughout with just an induction kit and exhaust lol

 

[Dan@SJM]

Daz's ph1 was laughable.

Ran 173 on the rollers mine ran 200 on, then went to ktec a week later without changing anything and ran 187 lol!

 

[Cup_Phil]

Bloody hell Dan - yours must actually be about 215bhp then lol

 

[Dan@SJM]

Oh and his was an extra 20 odd lb-ft lol. So mine would be 163lb-ft PMSL.

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah i must admit those superflow dyno's are a bit generous it seems! My stock engine with a map made 190/160 on TDF's dyno, same dyno as k-tec, Sam's did 193 on there and the 186 on RST's Dyno Dynamics

you should always take dyno figures with a pinch of salt anyway, "is the car quick?" is what i ask my customers, sod what the dyno says!

 

[Chip-mk1]

B*llsh*t power figures have always been an epic sales technique for these sort of companies, if they are happy and their customers are happy then no drama, but I personally do find it a bit laughable when people actually trust those sort of figures and then think there is something wrong with the rollers when they go to RS or Surrey etc.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Daz's ph1 was laughable.

Ran 173 on the rollers mine ran 200 on, then went to ktec a week later without changing anything and ran 187 lol!

Yeah they must have been having not a lot of milk in their tea that day!

 

[Russ_16v]

That bottom graph is shocking, but i'm not suprised lol

 

[Kyle 86]

Maybe fairy dust was sprinkled on the engine before it went on the RR

 

[tom172cup]

This should be interesting

 

[Adamm.]

Urm you could always unlike them on FB if it bothers you that much?

 

[Cup_Phil]

If that was aimed at me I do like them

Problem here is what Chip touched on. 99% of people who go for a remap or some bits fitting these days want to come out with a pretty graph where one line is higher than the other
The truth is sometimes a power curve might just have changed shape, but just that can transform a car.

One of my good friends runs a company that build a lot of very expensive competition cars and he maps for BTCC cars etc... he pretty much refuses to give a power graph at all
You take your car in, he works on it, maps it, and then throws you the keys. You come back smiling like a cheshire cat, but if you're looking for pub bragging figures you wont get them

This is what most people miss - I could have pushed like mad to get a 200bhp graph for my car - but what's the point, there's power everywhere and it drives perfectly. At the end of the day that's whats really important

But that's why I don't blame companies for having errr "generous" rolling road graphs, it's just giving the customer what they expect

 

[Adamm.]

If that was aimed at me I do like them

My comment wasn't aimed at you mate no.

And I actually agree with a lot you just said.

 

[Chip-mk1]

People do really obsess over peak figures, its the average figure you have for the duration of a gear that matters really.

 

[rickyquicky]

So its clear that their rollers are generous, but what about the before and after figures?

174 bhp before, 190 bhp after, thats a 16bhp increase on the same rollers right? Generous rollers or not, thats still quite an increase right?

Or am I missing something....?

 

[Fletcher]

So its clear that their rollers are generous, but what about the before and after figures?

174 bhp before, 190 bhp after, thats a 16bhp increase on the same rollers right? Generous rollers or not, thats still quite an increase right?

Or am I missing something....?

You can 'massage' the figures.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Exactly it's still quite an increase. Unheard of in NA F4R tuning.

 

[Laine_16v]

In stock form, my car made more at Surrey than Ktec, go figure.

But i tend to agree the superflows do seem generous, i put my faith in DynoDYnamics rollers.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So its clear that their rollers are generous, but what about the before and after figures?

174 bhp before, 190 bhp after, thats a 16bhp increase on the same rollers right? Generous rollers or not, thats still quite an increase right?

Or am I missing something....?

When you own a set of rollers, you can make them read what you want them to read within reason.

If I am operating a rolling road, and I want a higher power figure after fitting an air freshener than before, I can do that.

Its just a tool mate and it can be misused, its a bit like asking a bloke to measure his knob, he might get a little bit inventive about quite where it is meant to start and finish even if the ruler is accurate, lol

 

[Sir_Dave]

If you look closely in this photo, you can see the remote 'happy button' that ktec use for customer cars.

The more you spend, the bigger the button iirc.

 

[Chip-mk1]

In stock form, my car made more at Surrey than Ktec, go figure.

But i tend to agree the superflows do seem generous, i put my faith in DynoDYnamics rollers.

You are wrong to put your faith in any brand of rollers, I use dynodynamics normally and its a piece of cake to make them over read if you want to.

I had a lad who's ITB fiesta I was mapping saying he had read on a forum the figure should be higher than he got, I told him that was the most it was going to make as the fuelling and timing were both optimised at peak power already and I'd try going either side when mapping it and not one more bhp was available.
He rattled on a bit about forums, I moved the temp sensor, he had 7bhp more and was happy, I told him that the new figure was utter nonsense and I was just doing it to prove a point to him, and gave him the lower figure.
You can do same with the atmo correction, and also if you let the car climb onto the front roller on a DD setup it will massively over read, running it up in a different gear effects it too.

Unless you are operating the rollers yourself, you need to ask yourself "does the person giving me this number have anything to gain by lieing" if the answer is yes, then I'd treat a bit skeptically any numbers they give you.

 

[domsclio182]

My car is going on there rollers in a couple of weeks, the engine (F4R) is only 1 month old and has only covered 1500 miles, only mod is a Milltek decat. Should be interesting, will it make Renaults claimed 179 bhp I wonder.

 

[Brett]

To be fair a lot of people who buy mods like ktec's packages buy them because they think they're getting an extra 20bhp etc. If the quoted benefits of modifications was improved driveability then chances are they wouldn't sell half as much because it wouldn't give somebody false hope that their £500 tuning package will suddenly make their 1*2 quicker than their mates CTR.

 

[Tin cup]

A lot of R/R's have always been pot luck with figures if its not a bad rolling road it's a bad operator it's been like that from the start and will be to the end

 

[Chip-mk1]

A lot of R/R's have always been pot luck with figures if its not a bad rolling road it's a bad operator it's been like that from the start and will be to the end

Agreed, its in no way specific just to Ktec.

 

[dmallett]

I'd personally like to know exactly what my cars making power wise, I know people want to see value for money etc, larger tuning company's with in brands always seem the same IMO

 

[Chip-mk1]

surrey is a good benchmark, he doesnt care what you make as he doesnt tune cars.

 

[Jack-C]

Big numbers=big smiles and happy customers. No big deal but it is a shame when people really believe the figures are everything.

I'd personally like to know exactly what my cars making power wise, I know people want to see value for money etc, larger tuning company's with in brands always seem the same IMO

Theres so many variables tho even putting your car on the rollers in winter will make more power. As long as the car drives better after mods and a map surley the numbers on the graph are pointless? I do know what you mean tho. everyones always keen to see what numbers our car makes

 

[Chip-mk1]

Big numbers=big smiles and happy customers. No big deal but it is a shame when people really believe the figures are everything.




Theres so many variables tho even putting your car on the rollers in winter will make more power. As long as the car drives better after mods and a map surley the numbers on the graph are pointless? I do know what you mean tho. everyones always keen to see what numbers our car makes

Rolling roads like a DD setup will correct the figures to allow for temp variations. so its not the case that winter means more power on the graph, it means more power recorded but thats pre-correction.
if its cold, it will knock power off, if its hot it will add power on, in order to keep it a level playing field.

 

[Laine_16v]

You are wrong to put your faith in any brand of rollers, I use dynodynamics normally and its a piece of cake to make them over read if you want to.

I had a lad who's ITB fiesta I was mapping saying he had read on a forum the figure should be higher than he got, I told him that was the most it was going to make as the fuelling and timing were both optimised at peak power already and I'd try going either side when mapping it and not one more bhp was available.
He rattled on a bit about forums, I moved the temp sensor, he had 7bhp more and was happy, I told him that the new figure was utter nonsense and I was just doing it to prove a point to him, and gave him the lower figure.
You can do same with the atmo correction, and also if you let the car climb onto the front roller on a DD setup it will massively over read, running it up in a different gear effects it too.

Unless you are operating the rollers yourself, you need to ask yourself "does the person giving me this number have anything to gain by lieing" if the answer is yes, then I'd treat a bit skeptically any numbers they give you.

TLDR but thanks

 

[Jack-C]

Rolling roads like a DD setup will correct the figures to allow for temp variations. so its not the case that winter means more power on the graph, it means more power recorded but thats pre-correction.
if its cold, it will knock power off, if its hot it will add power on, in order to keep it a level playing field.

Cheers chip. I never knew that. I always thought colder air higher numbers

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheers chip. I never knew that. I always thought colder air higher numbers

This is the usual formula used:

Its because of that it means if the rolling road operator misinforms the rollers about pressure or temp it can alter the readings so much.

 

[Jack-C]

Yeah I've seen how much the air correction can change the numbers, last time I was at the rollers with my dads gt turbo cup racer it made just over 200 but he said its more like 230 with the air correction set up. I didn't think much of it at the time because the fueling is the only graph I care about but its certainly intresting learning about how the rollers and the computer work.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Would need to have been about a 60 degree celcius day to make 30 bhp difference mate, lol

 

[Jack-C]

Thats just what he said. Lap times were quicker so thats all that matters.

Edit: like i said before big numbers means big smiles. If he said it made 200 or 300 i wouldn't of cared as its the times on the track that matter. certainly is an intresting topic tho

 

[Chip-mk1]

Totally agreed on that point mate, rolling roads are a useful tuning aid but they are NOT capable of giving accurate flywheel power figures. Just tell you if you have more or less than you started with.

 

[Jack-C]

Yeah exactly all we use the dyno for is to set up the fueling. Lap times never lie.

Why is it that pretty much all rolling roads use flywheel hp when its measured in wheel hp? Why not just use whp and do away with the computer guessing the power?

What do you think of hub dynos? They seem a lot better because no chance of wheel spin but I guess it takes a lot longer to get the car attached to it. Theres far fewer hub dynos around

 

[leeds_182]

In my experience on here if you get good gains / power the rolling road is duff. If you get shat power then the rolling road is accurate.

 

[Fletcher]

surrey is a good benchmark, he doesnt care what you make as he doesnt tune cars.

Why I like SRR.

I personally would have nothing to do with Ktecs mapping/ maps.