MK1 Clio Hybrid

[Chip-mk1]

F4R - 165bhp

F7R - 150bhp

Figures speak for themselves standard for standard

2Live is now going to start banging onto you about what an F7R does on modified cams versus an F4R on standard cams I would imagine to try and ignore that deficit, lol

And in doing so he will completley and totally miss the point that half of his argument about why people should fit an F7R is cause its easier to wire in, but then he'll miss that a lot of people are happy to connect a few wires but not to change their camshafts, especially to aftermarket ones that require timing in to get the best from, plus of course its quite expensive to buy cams for an F7R unless you buy regrinds and they have a habbit of not being long term reliable if you do so. (he'll now ignore the perfectly valid statement about reliability I just made based on the reduced base cricle and will start saying he knows of an F7R thats done a million miles on reground cams etc, lol)

 

[_Tom]

F4R - 165bhp

F7R - 150bhp

Figures speak for themselves standard for standard

A standard F7R tends to make around 160bhp though.. (gets his spoon out)

 

[Chip-mk1]

A standard F7R tends to make around 160bhp though.. (gets his spoon out)

Lol @ spoon

Not from what I have seen, unless you are talking decatted and different exhaust etc?

In which case a good F4R will happily make 175bhp anyway with the same mods, so still 15bhp more, lol

 

[_Tom]

Lol @ spoon

Not from what I have seen, unless you are talking decatted and different exhaust etc?

In which case a good F4R will happily make 175bhp anyway with the same mods, so still 15bhp more, lol

I've seen a few do it but i'm not going to argue. I loved my old hybrid. Mine you, with just a few mods that made 150odd atw.

 

[2 live]

Yes you do if you want to run a coilpack arrangement like I mentioned to get rid of the nasty distributor based setup (or even to run semi or sequential injection) then yes you do need to get rid of the 44-2-2 flywheel like I said as that flywheel doesnt allow the ECU to distinguish between the cylinders, with the exception (like I have already said as well) being if you add an additional cam sensor, and where I get my information from is a detailed knowledge of the subject of how ECU's work and what triggers they require to support different hardware based on a large amount of first hand experience.


It just makes mapping them more cumbersome than using a decent ecu, and all just to end up with an ECU that is severely limited in the first place.







/QUOTE]



Hmmmm. It's there in black and white that you did.

 

[2 live]

And lol@ 10+BHP from an exhaust and decat. Do you work in marketing? Lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes you do if you want to run a coilpack arrangement like I mentioned to get rid of the nasty distributor based setup (or even to run semi or sequential injection) then yes you do need to get rid of the 44-2-2 flywheel like I said as that flywheel doesnt allow the ECU to distinguish between the cylinders, with the exception (like I have already said as well) being if you add an additional cam sensor, and where I get my information from is a detailed knowledge of the subject of how ECU's work and what triggers they require to support different hardware based on a large amount of first hand experience.


It just makes mapping them more cumbersome than using a decent ecu, and all just to end up with an ECU that is severely limited in the first place.

Hmmmm. It's there in black and white that you did.

Indeed it is, it is there very clearly saying that you cant rely on just on 44-2-2 if you want to run wasted spark, which is of course 100% correct or I wouldnt have said it in the first place. You either need to replace the trigger wheel with a different one (easiest way being to change the flywheel) or you need to add a cam sensor for phase reference, I really dont see how you can possibly fail to understand that when I have said it so clearly to you.

 

[Chip-mk1]

And lol@ 10+BHP from an exhaust and decat. Do you work in marketing? Lol

If the cat and exhaust you are replacing are very old, and hence half clogged up, like most F7R ones will be by now, its perfectly reasonable to see gains from replacing them (or to be more accurate removing the losses), although I personally would never quote a figure like +10bhp at anyone as it varies so much from car to car and based on condition of the bits you are replacing.
Also varies depending on what rollers you go on etc too, but one thing that doesnt seem to vary very much is the point that cookson was making that irrelevant of the actual figures, F4R's in standard form will make more power than F7R's in standard form, and with a decat and exhaust on both the F4R will still consistantly be winning as well.

 

[2 live]

Indeed it is, it is there very clearly saying that you cant rely on just on 44-2-2 if you want to run wasted spark, which is of course 100% correct or I wouldnt have said it in the first place. You either need to replace the trigger wheel with a different one (easiest way being to change the flywheel) or you need to add a cam sensor for phase reference, I really dont see how you can possibly fail to understand that when I have said it so clearly to you.

But here you were on about having to change the flywheel. Nothing else
Sayin you had to change the flywheel to run dizzy less ignition. Where in reality you don't

If the cat and exhaust you are replacing are very old, and hence half clogged up, like most F7R ones will be by now, its perfectly reasonable to see gains from replacing them (or to be more accurate removing the losses), although I personally would never quote a figure like +10bhp at anyone as it varies so much from car to car and based on condition of the bits you are replacing.
Also varies depending on what rollers you go on etc too, but one thing that doesnt seem to vary very much is the point that cookson was making that irrelevant of the actual figures, F4R's in standard form will make more power than F7R's in standard form, and with a decat and exhaust on both the F4R will still consistantly be winning as well.

And here you were on about the f4. 10+ bhp from exhaust and decat. It's all there. Read it lol

 

[2 live]

Indeed it is, it is there very clearly saying that you cant rely on just on 44-2-2 if you want to run wasted spark, which is of course 100% correct or I wouldnt have said it in the first place. You either need to replace the trigger wheel with a different one (easiest way being to change the flywheel) or you need to add a cam sensor for phase reference, I really dont see how you can possibly fail to understand that when I have said it so clearly to you.

Lol @ spoon

Not from what I have seen, unless you are talking decatted and different exhaust etc?

In which case a good F4R will happily make 175bhp anyway with the same mods, so still 15bhp more, lol

Of course you'd never say this would you? Lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

You seem to have quoted the wrong things mate, as the comments you are making arent even vaguely appropriate to the quotes you pasted in, try again, lol

I said you cant rely on the 44-2-2 flywheel, so you either need to replace it or add an extra trigger, that was true when I said it, has been true everytime I have repeated it and always will be true, cant see what about that is even slightly difficult to understand, the ECU sees the -2 teeth and all it knows is that two of the cylinders are at at a particular point in the cycle, but it doesnt know WHICH 2, as it sees the same for the other 2 as well, so consequently it cant do anything specific to pairs of cylinders like wasted spark or semi seq fuelling. Its all very obvious stuff and I cant understand how you are struggling so much with it TBH even despite your obvious lack of knowledge about ECU's and mapping etc, its not exactly rocket science to have to grasp that if the ecu sees EXACTLY the same signal for 2 pairs of cylinders it cant possibly know which is which!

 

[2 live]

Lol. When I get home and on my pc, il be able to post the quotes better..
The last 1 it's all there. An f4r with decat n exhaust will run 175 BHP. Lol. Meaning at least a 10 BHP gain over the standard exhaust and cat on a GOOD f4r pushing 165. Which most don't. Lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol. When I get home and on my pc, il be able to post the quotes better..
The last 1 it's all there. An f4r with decat n exhaust will run 175 BHP. Lol. Meaning at least a 10 BHP gain over the standard exhaust and cat on a GOOD f4r pushing 165. Which most don't. Lol

Lol at you thinking that is me saying they will gain 10bhp from a filter and exhaust when I havent said any such thing, my point was actually that most F7Rs dont make 160bhp and that for the ones that do you have to be realistic and compare them to those F4Rs that go onto make 175bhp, not take a good F7R with 160bhp and compare it to a distinctly average F4R, hence I used the term "a good f4r"

You really do just seem so desperate to just pick fault in something for the sake of picking fault in it wether there is anything wrong or not that you are making youself look very silly as you are trying to put words into my mouth that I havent ever actually said just so that you can then claim that if I had said them they would be wrong. LOL

Millerins engine as a recent example from a well respected set of independant rollers: decat, exhaust, generic remap = 181bhp

Laine's did similar as well, as have other many others.


Im not saying a filter and exhaust will give you 10bhp, unless your old one is choked up with soot, as typically of course it wont, but I am saying that for every good bhp F7R engine you see on the rollers you see a similar mods F4R still outperforming it by a fair margin.

 

[2 live]

Lol. Your posts speak for themselves. I never claimed 160 for an f7r. Your mistaken. I will say though, the f7r s will produce their quoted 150. The majority will produce more. Whereas the f4rs are very rarely putting out 165. So if your now comparing an average f7 to a good f4 , thats hardly right lol. I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. Quite the opposite, I'm trying to get across to you that half the things you hav tried quoting me on, I haven't said lol. If your comparing the 2 engines, surely it's only fair to do so in the same spec. Which in the case of the f7 means upgrading to 260 cams. Lol. This would then be equal spec to the f4. And the f7 would then create more torque throughout the rev range. This is what I was getting at. This is. What you misunderstood.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Lol. Your posts speak for themselves. I never claimed 160 for an f7r.

Indeed you didnt, I was replying to TomSx who DID say that though .

Your mistaken.

No you just thought I was talking to you when it was TomSx I was replying to, hence I quoted his post when I replied which IMHO made it a pretty idiotproof reply in terms of who it was aimed at, but obviously someone happened to be a better idiot than I had envisaged.

I will say though, the f7r s will produce their quoted 150. The majority will produce more. Whereas the f4rs are very rarely putting out 165. So if your now comparing an average f7 to a good f4 , thats hardly right lol.

The F4R in particular varies so much that its quite pointless trying to quote an average figure for all engines ever sold.
From the ones me and my circle of friends have had on Surrey Rolling Road recently though, about 175bhp genuinely seems to be about the average for those specific half a dozen or so engines, all with just very basic mods like a remap and exhaust, I realise that is far higher than most people on here will consider to be the expected output, but of all the ones we have had on recently 169bhp was the lowest and 181 was the highest and with most in the 170s, so Im just quoting actual recent numbers.
Our cars tend to be well maintained, well mapped and have the correct cam timing though, so maybe thats why it differs to a lot of them on here!

I'm not trying to put words into your mouth. Quite the opposite, I'm trying to get across to you that half the things you hav tried quoting me on, I haven't said lol. If your comparing the 2 engines, surely it's only fair to do so in the same spec. Which in the case of the f7 means upgrading to 260 cams.

Most peoples idea of the same spec is:
buy an F7R for 250 quid
buy an F4r for 250 quid
Leave both standard. Fit them.

If you want them to be the same sort of spec cams, shouldnt you be fitting higher CR pistons to the F7R as well? and fitting a better inlet to the F4R, making the F7R variable cam timing and then redesigning the two cylinder heads so they are both the same?
I just cant even vaguely understand how you think you are comparing like with like to cam one and not the other, its just a nonsense, the standard cams in an F4R are better, thats one of the reasons why they are better engines, the higher compression is another and the steel headgakset is another, convesely IMHO the head on the F7R is a better layout for lifters which makes them a more realsitic proposition to rev, but thats all just part of the differences between them that influence peoples decision on which makes sense as a cheap and cheerful transplant of a standard engine and which makes sense for a big power build.

Lol. This would then be equal spec to the f4. And the f7 would then create more torque throughout the rev range. This is what I was getting at. This is. What you misunderstood.

I havent misunderstood it at all, Ive just seen past this mindless obsession with ONLY the cams which is all you seem to see and because Ive recently built both engines and hence am clearly more familiar with them than you appear to be I have realised that things like the terrible standard inlet manifold on the F4R ruins the torque curve so how is it fair to modify the lame cams on one engine and not the lame inlet on the other? What you are saying is just nonsense, you are saying that a modified engine is better than a standard one, well thanks for the revelation, lol

 

[2 live]

Well ok then. We'll go with that. Std Williams f7,standard f4r. Drop them both in the mk1. The std mk1 loom. Now we' re like for like. Which runs? Which doesn't? And that's an easier conversion?
And lol at quoting remapped engine figures as std lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well ok then. We'll go with that. Std Williams f7,standard f4r. Drop them both in the mk1. The std mk1 loom. Now we' re like for like. Which runs? Which doesn't? And that's an easier conversion?

If you want really easy, then stick with the valver engine TBH, as that one wont be running lean on the standard map. If you do go for a williams on a valver map you'll be lucky to see over 145bhp most of the time from what I have seen as its so lean, so its a pretty pointless amount of hassle and expense to fit it just to see such tiny gains over the F7P in the first place.
It needs a map to work with to be worth doing at all IMHO so I think thats a fairly pointless question you are asking really.

And lol at quoting remapped engine figures as std lol

Because most of the people I tend to hang around with understand that breathing mods on a speed density base setup require a remap to work well, thats what we tend to dyno most of the time, but on millerins for example, that engine blatantly would have done around the 175 you seem to think is impossible even without the remap as the remap doesnt gain it *that* much.
Even our 172 even before mapping made 169 for example, and thats a 140K miler, just to dispute your disbeleif that F4Rs can make over 165bhp.

The bottom line is that they DO make more power than F7Rs do, wether you want to beleive it or argue endlessly about if its 10bhp more or 15bhp or whatever, it doesnt change the fact its enough to really notice when driving them both in a similar weight car.

 

[2 live]

answering the question would be good.

£250 on an engine, 1 f4, one f7. which would be running after the days out on the std mk116v loom and ecu??

 

[Chip-mk1]

answering the question would be good.

£250 on an engine, 1 f4, one f7. which would be running after the days out on the std mk116v loom and ecu??

Well obviously the F7R will be easier to get in and running and making barely anymore power than standard, but thats not really answering the actual question as to what makes for a good transplant, as something so compromised that it makes barely anymore power than standard isnt exactly a great option.

If its a daily driver and it HAS to be back on the road ASAP or something like that then definately the F7R is easier (or another F7P iuf you literally just need workign transport again), if its a project car where performance matters then the F4R is a better option, so its a case of horses for courses.

 

[Cookson]

I just cant even vaguely understand how you think you are comparing like with like to cam one and not the other, its just a nonsense, the standard cams in an F4R are better, thats one of the reasons why they are better engines, the higher compression is another and the steel headgakset is another, convesely IMHO the head on the F7R is a better layout for lifters which makes them a more realsitic proposition to rev, but thats all just part of the differences between them that influence peoples decision on which makes sense as a cheap and cheerful transplant of a standard engine and which makes sense for a big power build.

/End thread TBH