mods from down under..

[MR_PEA]

recently my 172 has had some reconstructive surgery. As most of you know the 172 inlet is one of the bigest restrictions on the car, so we have bolted a 197 inlet manifold to my car. Paul from Autoparis in Melbourne, has done all the work, so far we have used groupN cat cams, extensively modified head to suit manifold. the head is bolted back on and the car now idles and is currently being tuned.

before the work was carried out the 172 had a BMC CDA, and a devil cat back exhaust system. (dynoed at 94kw atw)

we are hoping for a base off 200hp at the fly. which should be good for about 110-115 kw at the wheels.

paul has used as many stock parts as possible to keep the costs down, including retuning the factory ecu, which means no cutting into the factory harness. we only had to extend one plug out of the whole harness.

http://www.autoparis.com.au/

 

[ben_p]

Mint!

Was it a like for like swap?

 

[MR_PEA]

huh??? what do you mean...

 

[fearless]

^ assume it wasn't a straight swap. The 197 inlet had to be modified to fit? right?

 

[Riley!]

the manifolds he means, as in did you have to modify them in any way to fit or fit any other parts off the 197?

 

[MR_PEA]

yep the head was massively modified to match the manifold to the head.

also note that the injectors on the newer manifold fire directly into the combustion chamber, where as the stock 172 manifold fires towards the back of the head.

as for the manifold, it is as if it was straight off a 197, completely standard.

 

[Keith185]

Great work :approve:

 

[W4tson]

Good stuff matey

 

[chrispy.clio]

Thats pretty cool mate, top stuff

 

[Gally]

Will it make a good difference?

 

[MR_PEA]

Im actually quite surprised that this kind of mod has not been done before..
alot of people dismissed it with out even taking a look to see if it could be done.

this seemed like a decent mod after the 197 came out..

 

[scott1205]

what were the power gains from this mate

 

[MR_PEA]

we should achieve 200hp at the fly, anything on top of that is just icing on the cake..

 

[OLR]

What was cost?

 

[MR_PEA]

the costs are yet to be determined as we are still finishing up the price list for this one..

but i would think that the cost i pay here in Australia may be a little different to what you pay there in uk, ect...

 

[steviet]

What did you have to do to the 197 manifold to get it to fit the 1@2 head?? did you use the original lower inlet??

 

[MR_PEA]

keep in mind that the 197 and the 1x2 manifolds are completely different, so it was not a case of just bolting on the top half..
instead we reshaped and lifted the ports in the head to meet the manifold. it was a very tricky task, but Paul at AutoParis was very confident that he could get this done. as it turns out he can do wonders with heads..
personally i am anticipating some good results.

 

[scuba]

aweswome job. i am in Brisbane and have been thinking of similar mods on my ph2 for a while now. have you struggled to find good help and products in Australia?

 

[MR_PEA]

yea not much help in aus.. there are few specialists, but only 1-2 guys in aus that will openly do this kind of work..
both of them are working on my car...

i take it that you are on ozrenaultsport.com

 

[Darren S]

keep in mind that the 197 and the 1x2 manifolds are completely different, so it was not a case of just bolting on the top half..
instead we reshaped and lifted the ports in the head to meet the manifold. it was a very tricky task, but Paul at AutoParis was very confident that he could get this done. as it turns out he can do wonders with heads..
personally i am anticipating some good results.

I think there's your answer m8, as to why it's not been done before.

For a lot of people (myself included) - the RS is their daily runner. Changing the brakes, exhaust, remap etc is one thing, but reshaping the ports is a little too drastic for most of us.

Most of us that haven't won the Lottery anyway.

Nice work though. Keep us informed as to what happens.

D.

 

[Fred@BTM]

why only grpN catcams? i hear they're virtually stock cams?

 

[MR_PEA]

yea thats what i thought..
but apparently the groupN cams are a few grades above stock. also they are hollow and lighter, to reduce sprung weight (not sure if that would make much of a diffrence, but every little bit helps)
he said not to go much more aggressive as it wont be as user friendly.

I think there's your answer m8, as to why it's not been done before.

For a lot of people (myself included) - the RS is their daily runner. Changing the brakes, exhaust, remap etc is one thing, but reshaping the ports is a little too drastic for most of us.

Most of us that haven't won the Lottery anyway.

well i dident win the lottery, but it would of helped my bank balance a bit better if I did..

i wouldnt say that its drastic, but when you are doing heads and cams and porting heads and the inlet, you are already commited, might as well get something a bit better that will give better returns.

 

[Icarus]

The 'Group N' Cat Cams are standard cam profiles but ground to the limits of tolerance under the FIA Group N regulations i.e. there is an allowed (very small) tolerance for lift/duration over standard.

For all intense and purposes they are standard cams.

Cheers
M

 

[MR_PEA]

sorry that i havent posted recently, but i have been in the middle of exams.
the GroupN cams are a matched camshaft to get the most from a stock engine. saying that they are a stock camshaft is simply not the case. if it were the case FIA would just use standard cams.. (why go to the expense when its not required??)
currently we have these cams in a throttled bodied 172 and its making a tasty 230hp. so they must be doing something right.

hope that clears it up for you.

 

[Jamesstone]

Nice work! looks like it could be a cracking little set-up that could still be driven daily, only draw backs, as said, its not going to be cheap + having the car off the road for the time its being worked on, could be even greater gains from a better induction set-up surely? plenty of bends before it gets to the airbox on the current set-up, could modify it to run into the scuttle panel and go single wiper and move the windscreen washer bottle etc down to the front where the stock airbox would be? straight path to cooler air..


James

 

[MR_PEA]

yea im not 100% on that intake piping setup.. but i may redo it myself to make it shorter and flow better. however we are using even piping all the way so we should not louse much power in its current state. over say just having a pod filter on the end of it..
initially i wanted a 135deg bend to the intake but im not sure if it could be done due to spacing issues.

having the car off the road for this long has taken its toll on me, however i also have a motorbike so im not completely with out wheels. but i recently ditched my 250 for a CBR600.so i have been using the 600 to get my speed gigles out..
cheers Joel.

 

[Fred@BTM]

sorry that i havent posted recently, but i have been in the middle of exams.
the GroupN cams are a matched camshaft to get the most from a stock engine. saying that they are a stock camshaft is simply not the case. if it were the case FIA would just use standard cams.. (why go to the expense when its not required??)
currently we have these cams in a throttled bodied 172 and its making a tasty 230hp. so they must be doing something right.

hope that clears it up for you.

sorry to piss on your bonfire, but that's not possible (on a stock bottom end)

 

[MR_PEA]

whats not possible? are you taking the piss?

 

[Fred@BTM]

230bhp on stock cams (allbeit catcam grpN variants)

i think barron's with them does 215 give or take (stock bottom end)

you won't hit 230 without high comp pistons and some lairy cams IMO

 

[Icarus]

if it were the case FIA would just use standard cams..

Which is exactly what they mandate for GrpN!!!! The Cat GrpN variant is ground to a standard profile with as much movement as possible in lift and duration that the FIA spec tolerances allow. Those tolerances are tiny BTW. The Cat GrpN profile is essentialy a completely standard cam.

Whoever advised you differently was wrong and you really should go and have a word with them! I do a fair bit with CAT and am a dealer for their products so know the product range fairly well

As for 230bhp with bodies and those cams as above that's just not possible.

Cheers
M

 

[sideways danny]

who would have possibly told people 420s weren't stock??

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=321830&highlight=catcam+420&page=2

 

[MR_PEA]

well i dont know what to say about this...
the info i got is pritty solid, as the guy who is tuning my car also tunes formula fords, V8 supercars and F3's amonst other things and been in the game for over 20years.
if he says that got those figures from a throttle bodied 172 with cams, headwork and ecu, then i would be inclined to believe him.

im not a mechanic or uber tuner and i dont pretend to be.. but i do know my way around cars and i can tell who is feeding me crap and who is not.

besides we chouse these parts becuase it was a good fit for what we were trying to achieve. a daily driver that really has some boogie.....

nuff said!

 

[Fred@BTM]

i won't go into a dick slinging match and say what matt or myself does (matt's better than me! ), but there is no way you can get 230bhp out of an F4R with grpN cams, throttle bodies, headwork and an ecu, thats 100% sub 220 area,

the most i've ever seen out of an F4R on a stock NA bottom end was 225 and i didn't 100% believe that figure

can you get the power graph, you may prove us wrong!

 

[Bazzon]

230bhp on stock cams (allbeit catcam grpN variants)

i think barron's with them does 215 give or take (stock bottom end)

you won't hit 230 without high comp pistons and some lairy cams IMO

Our car runs, ITBs, OMex ECU, 420 grp N cams, standard internals, Our car make 200-210 depending on the rollers.

230 on this set up is impossible.

we have something in the pipeline that may well put out car up at the 230mark.

Fred and matt know there stuff, fred has seen and driven our car, Matt helped paul with some of the mapping.

/Adrian.

 

[kristian]

are the 197 inlets alot less restrictive? i no very litttle about them.

 

[wozzaa]

Our car runs, ITBs, OMex ECU, 420 grp N cams, standard internals, Our car make 200-210 depending on the rollers.

230 on this set up is impossible.

we have something in the pipeline that may well put out car up at the 230mark.

Fred and matt know there stuff, fred has seen and driven our car, Matt helped paul with some of the mapping.

/Adrian.

Think this highlights part of the inflated figure reason...

we are hoping for a base off 200hp at the fly. which should be good for about 110-115 kw at the wheels.

110kw at the wheels is what 148hp...someone has screwed the transmission losses up and way over estimated them. Which could explain his 230hp figure later in the thread. 148 at the wheels is what they should be putting down standard.

I know the 180 in the C4 isn't the same but mine was putting down 160 (120kw) at the wheels and only clocking 180-190 at the fly depending on dyno.

 

[MR_PEA]

just an update, got a few youtube clips for ya of the work done..
[youtube]Hh5A0EE8SVg[/youtube]

[youtube]NgeVFiKvfRk[/youtube]

some of the guys on OZRS.au timed my car at 6.5sec to 100 (or 60mph) thats with a non stripped car with a decent size stereo.
Cheers Joel.

 

[VeinAST]

Sounds lovely

 

[MR_PEA]

yea it took a bit to get right...

 

[MR_PEA]

i had a play with the intake setup on it today and i came back with these..







one thing that i found interesting after driving for more then 30-35min (ambient temp 11-13degC) the intake was 2-4deg above ambient. i drove for another 40-50min and found the same again..