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PH1 with cup subframe and wishbones



Fraser.J.

Fraser.J.

Just finished changing over to a cup subframe with polybushed wishbones and arb.

I've kept the ph1 steering rack, what do I need to do for the extra width, cup trackrod ends? Inner rods?

Thanks!
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
From what has been said on here, you will need the cup track rods and ends (renault only) but some have got away with FF track rod ends.

Shafts will be needed but afaik the phase 1 shafts are the 2nd longest shafts to the cup so you might get away with it. If you could measure float that will give you an idea.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
When the shaft and all suspension is fitted there will be some float/movement in the CV joints (constant velocity) at the inside and outside of the shaft. You only want enough to allow the suspension to go through its full movement including turning the wheels, too much and the shaft will either pop out of the CV or make noise during turning or acceleration/decelaration. If your not 100% sure as im not either of exact shaft lenght's I would just buy cup shafts as you will have no issues. iirc 172 cup is the longest shaft available as the wishbone mounting points are moved out to give wider track which needs longer shafts.

Hope that helps. If not, google measuring driveshaft float.
 
mikekean

mikekean

ClioSport Club Member
  996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
Has anyone actually confirmed to see if the cup subframe part number is actually different? all sounds like a load of nonsense to me. Ive just fitted cup wishbones to my PH2 FF and i cannot see any difference in track to that of my old cup.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
You can fit the wishbones to a ph1 and use the original shafts, but I believe the subframe spaces them out further which is why the cup ones are longer. If you are lowering it and adding camber though, you might find the ph1 are perfectly suited.

Dont suppose you took any measurements off the frames while they are off, I'd like to see ph1 and cup side by side TBH
 
mikekean

mikekean

ClioSport Club Member
  996 C4S, 135i, E30x2
I hope not as im using cup shafts on my williams with the widetrack and if they are longer then there not going to be having much fun haha.
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
I think its a case of Renault at there best again with the subframe thing. They say all wishbones are the same which has been proved wrong by people on here getting the correct number, buying and noticing the offset ball joint mount holes for more caster.

I think the same applies with the subframes, renault will tell you they are all the same untill you find a part number and prove them wrong. I have seen pictures of the 2 subframes on here and the holes are further out for the wishbone mounts by about 10mm a side iirc. I will have a search for them, some one from europe mentioned it and mark123 confirmed by checking. I haven't had a chance yet.
 
Fraser.J.

Fraser.J.

If only i posted this before i fitted it chip i could of done some sizes for you.

You can definitely see a difference in where the wishbones mount, the holes are further out (will get some pics to compare against the ph1 as i still have it). Apart from that it looked pretty much the same. What sizes would you be looking for? Will see if i can get them with it fitted?

It will be lowered on KW V2s with about 2 degree camber.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
The figure I would have to have a definitive value for is the increase in hole centres front and back for the two wishbone mounting points.
So basically a distance between the drivers side wishbone front mounting hole and the pass side one, and then the same figure for the rear one (which I would expect to increase by the same amount TBH but it would be nice to check as if they are different it implies a further caster change)
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Ps

With it lowered and with that much camber, I would say that normal 172 ph2 shafts would be ideal, you get the equal length upgrade then and they should be long enough as when you lower and camber up a ph2 they are actually so long they can bottom out, so on a cup setup they should be ideal if the wishbones are spaced out further like is claimed on here.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Swede cup said:
I don't know if you saw this thread Chip but I can't see them making a complete new design of subframe, they would just use different wishbone tabs.
Click to expand...

Agreed mate, the main beams will be in the same place I would expect, as the location points on the shell are the same, so it would make no sense to alter that.

The tabs are pretty easy to just weld new onto and drill where you want as well realistically, so potentially we could no doubt make our cars wider by quite a margin that way if we wanted to.
 
C

Chip-mk1

  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Fraser.J. said:
Chip, what's your thoughts on the track rod end and inner rods, since the drive shaft should be ok due to camber/lowering will they be the same?
Click to expand...

Pass I am afraid mate, you will just have to see how many threads you have wound in when you set it up, ive not tried with that setup.
As its only about 10mm at most by the looks of it that its moving, I would think you would be fine, there is a LOT of safety margin on them anyway, but I wouldnt want to guarentee it in every case as if you rack has moved or the car has been in a bang the adjustment can move all to one side as a result.
.
 
L

leew88

  phase 1 172
does the subframe bolt straight on from a 172 cup to a ph1 172? i have everything from a cup if need be
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Yes you only need the subframe, everything else is the same except make sure you have cup/later model wishbones. Either will fit but you want the extra caster they provide.
 
Fraser.J.

Fraser.J.

Just to add I never did change tie rods/track rod ends. Just wound out the standard items. No issues so far! Will be changing them all in the new year. And will probably just stick to what's on it!
 
L

leew88

  phase 1 172
i understamd the differemces on the cup non cup arms but the subframes are baffling me

are you saying the ph1 and ph2 are the same but the cup is different or that the ph1 is different to ph2 but mounts the bulkhead the same

really cant see why renault would use a different subframe in the cup when it was launched purely as a budget model
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Lee the 172 cup wasn't a budget car but a more track orientated car which is cheaper if the manufacturer pass in the savings in less materials and less driver aids.

Its a bit more than that Fraser iirc, something closer to 15mm a side, the track rods are 15mm longer in a genuine to genuine comparison. There is a good thread on here with pictures of it all that Mark123 took.

Fraser did you change the shafts, the ph1 afaik is the 2nd longest single piece shaft in the 1*2 range.
 
Fraser.J.

Fraser.J.

MG cup said:
Lee the 172 cup wasn't a budget car but a more track orientated car which is cheaper if the manufacturer pass in the savings in less materials and less driver aids.

Its a bit more than that Fraser iirc, something closer to 15mm a side, the track rods are 15mm longer in a genuine to genuine comparison. There is a good thread on here with pictures of it all that Mark123 took.

Fraser did you change the shafts, the ph1 afaik is the 2nd longest single piece shaft in the 1*2 range.
Click to expand...

Doubt its 15 tbh! But I might be wrong, I'll grab a pic of a normal subframe tonight to compare!

Nah still running ph1 shafts, not had any issues
 
L

leew88

  phase 1 172
i have all 3 172 subframes if anyone can tell me where to measure i could post results of the 3 varients

sounds like it could well be worth it
 
M

MG cup

  Cup In bits
Mark the cups always had the same wishbones, subframes, track rods, stub axles where from what's on here everything else just seems to be a parts bin special in a lot of cases. They usually have the RS inlet too and the strongest engines.

Cups r da best ;-). IMO they're the best Clio to start modifying for the track. Most people end up with half a 172 cup fitted to their car anyway.
 
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