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I find it hard to believe that lack of ICV would cause there to be no spark, I think thats a red herring personally.
Getting some form of diagnostics onto it would be a good plan.
For it not to be sparking, you need to narrow down if its on the way into the ecu or from the ecu that you are having the problem, so if you know if the ECU is seeing a decent CPS signal and knows what rpm its doing and where in the rev range it is, then you can start looking at the output side of things, if its not then you know its an input problem, at least that halves the number of places to look.
Mind you, personally I would sack the whole lot off and go aftermarket, so much more future proof that way if you ever want to turbo it or put it on bodies etc.
Getting some form of diagnostics onto it would be a good plan.
For it not to be sparking, you need to narrow down if its on the way into the ecu or from the ecu that you are having the problem, so if you know if the ECU is seeing a decent CPS signal and knows what rpm its doing and where in the rev range it is, then you can start looking at the output side of things, if its not then you know its an input problem, at least that halves the number of places to look.
Mind you, personally I would sack the whole lot off and go aftermarket, so much more future proof that way if you ever want to turbo it or put it on bodies etc.
welshname
ClioSport Club Member
ICV wouldn't cause a lack of spark IMO. It'll just cause it to climb the revs and not idle.
Fingers crossed you manage to sort it. Can't wait to see this running
Fingers crossed you manage to sort it. Can't wait to see this running
Would only rise revs if it's jammed open or there is a hole where it's meant to be which is leaking. If it's on and stays shut it might struggle to idle at all without a bit of throttle. Would still spark though.
Christopher
ClioSport Club Member
Z4M
I said this myself when I was there both times. Although considering the investment Ed's made into both OE looms/management, it's probably best to explore the issues with OE for now; as fiddly as it is.
There's two reasons why I don't want aftermarket management.
First is the cost implication. My planned budget doesn't allow for £600 on an ECU alone.
Second is that it's not OE, I kinda want this to be as factory as I can make it, even though I've chopped at the loom so much, BMW themselves probably wouldn't recognise it.
First is the cost implication. My planned budget doesn't allow for £600 on an ECU alone.
Second is that it's not OE, I kinda want this to be as factory as I can make it, even though I've chopped at the loom so much, BMW themselves probably wouldn't recognise it.
One of the main reasons I never bothered with aftermarket management on the Mk1 either - the initial cost (install being DIY), and then £300+ to properly map it, your up to circa £1k. Even with all the messing about with emulators/immobilisers it worked fine in the end without having to spend 10x the money
Yep, that's it. I don't have an endless budget for this, so certain decisions have to be made.
It's also worth noting that plenty of people have done this swap and therefore there are quite a few guides. Wiring is new to me, and it's not a strong point of mine. Learning how to put a standalone system in on my own wouldn't end well.
Oli and I are spending a day on it tomorrow doing a number of tests, I'll highlight what fails and what passes the tests, see what the correlation is between them and go from there. Sorting the diagnostic plug is high on my list too.
It's also worth noting that plenty of people have done this swap and therefore there are quite a few guides. Wiring is new to me, and it's not a strong point of mine. Learning how to put a standalone system in on my own wouldn't end well.
Oli and I are spending a day on it tomorrow doing a number of tests, I'll highlight what fails and what passes the tests, see what the correlation is between them and go from there. Sorting the diagnostic plug is high on my list too.
So the big news is that today the M20 started. It was somewhat unexpected but ultimately, it did.
It appears for some reason, the fuel pump relay isn't having it, and possibly the ECU relay, which I kind of already knew, so the only reason it started was because the relay plugs were bridged with some wire. So I need to try some known working relays and see if it's the relays, or the ECU not telling the relays the information they need.
While the engine was running for the second time, the oil line loop that I had made to join the outlet and return side of where the oil cooler was, exploded. The line had kinked, and the oil had backed up and caused the line to completely, and somewhat spectacularly fail. I'm hoping there was no damage done to the engine, as it was on for less than 10 seconds, and was idling. As soon as the line failed, the engine was turned off instantly.
The plan is to replace the oil cooler sandwich plate and oil filer housing with number 5 on this drawing:
It allows me to remove the oil filter housing mounting plate and oil cooler plate, then mount the oil filter directly to the block.
I'm unsure on if they M20 is okay without an oil cooler, but for now, I'm sure it'll be fine. If I do need one, I'll get on made up properly.
Once I've sorted the oil system, I'll be safe to run the engine for a little longer (there's no cooling system at the moment, so I can't leave it running for too long) but certainly long enough to establish how well it runs.
What I can say, is I noticed it idled better without the ICV, but it did idle quite high. When we plugged the ICV in, it seemed to idle worse, right up until the oil line exploded.
The injectors also seemed to buzz in a very pulsating fashion, they didn't do this all the time, only when the engine didn't start properly one of the the earlier attempts. It was a rhythmic buzzing, quite loud and was certainly "in sync" if you like, it wasn't a random buzzing. I need to look into that and figure out what was causing it.
Other than that, the engine sounded okay, no loud bangs or misfiring. Nothing to suggest at this point that the engine is a bag of spanners. Of course it is still early days so I'm treading with caution at the moment.
After the engine work came to a stop after the oil line failure, we decided to detail the car and get the oil off the paintwork. A full decon and claying, followed by Prima Amigo via DA and finished with Zaino Z2. Then all tucked up away on it's new part of the driveway.
Can't wait to make some progress on it now.
It appears for some reason, the fuel pump relay isn't having it, and possibly the ECU relay, which I kind of already knew, so the only reason it started was because the relay plugs were bridged with some wire. So I need to try some known working relays and see if it's the relays, or the ECU not telling the relays the information they need.
While the engine was running for the second time, the oil line loop that I had made to join the outlet and return side of where the oil cooler was, exploded. The line had kinked, and the oil had backed up and caused the line to completely, and somewhat spectacularly fail. I'm hoping there was no damage done to the engine, as it was on for less than 10 seconds, and was idling. As soon as the line failed, the engine was turned off instantly.
The plan is to replace the oil cooler sandwich plate and oil filer housing with number 5 on this drawing:
It allows me to remove the oil filter housing mounting plate and oil cooler plate, then mount the oil filter directly to the block.
I'm unsure on if they M20 is okay without an oil cooler, but for now, I'm sure it'll be fine. If I do need one, I'll get on made up properly.
Once I've sorted the oil system, I'll be safe to run the engine for a little longer (there's no cooling system at the moment, so I can't leave it running for too long) but certainly long enough to establish how well it runs.
What I can say, is I noticed it idled better without the ICV, but it did idle quite high. When we plugged the ICV in, it seemed to idle worse, right up until the oil line exploded.
The injectors also seemed to buzz in a very pulsating fashion, they didn't do this all the time, only when the engine didn't start properly one of the the earlier attempts. It was a rhythmic buzzing, quite loud and was certainly "in sync" if you like, it wasn't a random buzzing. I need to look into that and figure out what was causing it.
Other than that, the engine sounded okay, no loud bangs or misfiring. Nothing to suggest at this point that the engine is a bag of spanners. Of course it is still early days so I'm treading with caution at the moment.
After the engine work came to a stop after the oil line failure, we decided to detail the car and get the oil off the paintwork. A full decon and claying, followed by Prima Amigo via DA and finished with Zaino Z2. Then all tucked up away on it's new part of the driveway.
Can't wait to make some progress on it now.
Christopher
ClioSport Club Member
Z4M
YEH M9. YOUR BANTS IS JOKES.
Good progress this weekend, it has to be said.
Rebuild.
Good progress this weekend, it has to be said.
Rebuild.
Christopher
ClioSport Club Member
Z4M
E30 335d.
As far as I'm aware the ICV was bought as working. Didn't actually come with the engine and ancillaries.
Taylor will be rolling in a 750iL before this thing is "finished", so I wouldn't worry.
Yeah, that's correct, it was bought after I bought the engine and it was sold as a working ICV, of course people do lie, so I can't rule out ICV failure.
Good news that there's life in the engine and as mentioned on chat, fingers crossed no damage was done when the oil line went pop.
and LOL, the term "when hell freezes over" springs to mind. TF.
and LOL, the term "when hell freezes over" springs to mind. TF.
Yeah, new king lead.
How do you mean, "dizzy only fit on one way"?
Spark plugs aren't new, no.
When we tried to rev it, it would bog down and eventually cut out. It would do the same without throttle though.
Edit:
Just seen that the M20 needs to be ran for 10 mins minimum on its first start so the ECU can learn the base idle settings. You know much about that, Jord?
How do you mean, "dizzy only fit on one way"?
Spark plugs aren't new, no.
When we tried to rev it, it would bog down and eventually cut out. It would do the same without throttle though.
Edit:
Just seen that the M20 needs to be ran for 10 mins minimum on its first start so the ECU can learn the base idle settings. You know much about that, Jord?
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Sorry, i meant is it bolt on in one position only, or is there adjustment in the location it fits (some cars you can rotate the dizzy by a few degrees each way to change the ignition timing).
With it bogging down and cutting out, it sounds like it could possibly be an air leak... on the E36 if you leave a vac pipe disconnected, or any part of the inlet open to atmosphere, it does the same, and just stalls if you try to drive it. Simply because the engine is getting unmetered air (from somewhere after the MAF) If you have any brake cleaner, spray it round the engine bay where pipes join the inlet, and if the revs increase you are drawing in air from somewhere
With it bogging down and cutting out, it sounds like it could possibly be an air leak... on the E36 if you leave a vac pipe disconnected, or any part of the inlet open to atmosphere, it does the same, and just stalls if you try to drive it. Simply because the engine is getting unmetered air (from somewhere after the MAF) If you have any brake cleaner, spray it round the engine bay where pipes join the inlet, and if the revs increase you are drawing in air from somewhere
With ref the idle/ecu/learning - quite possibly with it being an old ECU, but id imagine it would be fast idle and not misfiring. E36 has something similar, where it learns adaptions for the engine. You can reset it with INPA and it will just idle high for a while, then smooth out once it learns again etc.
Yeah Jord, when I read about the ECU base idle settings, I did wonder if it would cause misfiring, I guess not.
With regards to the dizzy, I don't recall it being something you could rotate or adjust the position of, pretty sure it just bolted on one way.
Good thinking regarding the vacuum leak, I'll have a look at it and see if the inlet might leaking air, but I really can't imagine where it would be from.
With regards to the dizzy, I don't recall it being something you could rotate or adjust the position of, pretty sure it just bolted on one way.
Good thinking regarding the vacuum leak, I'll have a look at it and see if the inlet might leaking air, but I really can't imagine where it would be from.
So, I bought a new rad the other day, as the previous one was both the incorrect rad, and it also leaked.
Got it fitted today, just need the coolant hoses to arrive and I'll get it setup.
Then this weekend, I need to cut my splices out for the injector loom and resolder on the C191 plug which allows me to plug the injector wiring in via the OEM plug. This plug is a known water/dirt trap, but I want to get things as OEM as possible so I can eliminate anything that might be causing this misfiring.
Got it fitted today, just need the coolant hoses to arrive and I'll get it setup.
Then this weekend, I need to cut my splices out for the injector loom and resolder on the C191 plug which allows me to plug the injector wiring in via the OEM plug. This plug is a known water/dirt trap, but I want to get things as OEM as possible so I can eliminate anything that might be causing this misfiring.
welshname
ClioSport Club Member
IT LIVES!!! And sounds like it's on all cylinders.
It sounds good considering the idle hasn't set itself yet, and it's got no exhaust. Should be sorting the exhaust this week and letting the ECU get some idle settings.
My neighbour used to be into his cars, and loves the project.
It's been too long since an update, been very busy with the car and a new job.
It's a bit of a mixed bag at the moment. The engine runs very smoothly, no lumpiness or misfiring any more, but unfortunately it's revving very high, and I'm not talking a little bit high, it sounds like it's 3k+ and slowly climbing.
This high idle could be cause by the lack of back pressure, as there is not a complete exhaust at the moment, something I'm in the process of sorting. After a chat with Jord, we think it might be injector related, as I had the injectors doing this after the engine stalled:
So I did some reading and it turns out that there were some very early, high impedance injectors, mainly Jetronic. The later cars all had low impedance injectors. The readings for the two types of injectors are as follows:
HI: 14.5 Ohms - 17.5 Ohms
LI: 2.5 Ohms - 3.0 Ohms
I tested the resistance of mine tonight, circa 16.0 Ohms. So it might well be that mine are somehow the wrong ones. The part numbers do vary it would seem, so I'm going to try a set of later ones, and see if the resistance is different, and if so, swap them, if not, back to the drawing board.
I have a very helpful breaker from E30Zone who is helping me no end with spare parts, and trying to find the issue.
ICV might well be at fault, but I'm not convinced it could cause such a high idle. The important thing to remember is the idle is smooth, not lumpy at all, suggesting it's not an air leak, as I believe a massive air leak would cause crappy running.
We tried blocking various things up to see what does what, and the only way to bring the idle down was the block the ICV, and open the hole in the rubber boot between the AFM and the TB that the ICV was in. When we did that, the engine idle dropped, ran rough, then died.
Had a look at the AFM tonight, and it seems spanking new inside, all clean and looked fine. Same story with the Throttle Position Sensor, which was perfect inside, no gunk or crap which is commonly found in there.
Next step is sort the exhaust so I have adequate back pressure. Then go from there.
It's a bit of a mixed bag at the moment. The engine runs very smoothly, no lumpiness or misfiring any more, but unfortunately it's revving very high, and I'm not talking a little bit high, it sounds like it's 3k+ and slowly climbing.
This high idle could be cause by the lack of back pressure, as there is not a complete exhaust at the moment, something I'm in the process of sorting. After a chat with Jord, we think it might be injector related, as I had the injectors doing this after the engine stalled:
So I did some reading and it turns out that there were some very early, high impedance injectors, mainly Jetronic. The later cars all had low impedance injectors. The readings for the two types of injectors are as follows:
HI: 14.5 Ohms - 17.5 Ohms
LI: 2.5 Ohms - 3.0 Ohms
I tested the resistance of mine tonight, circa 16.0 Ohms. So it might well be that mine are somehow the wrong ones. The part numbers do vary it would seem, so I'm going to try a set of later ones, and see if the resistance is different, and if so, swap them, if not, back to the drawing board.
I have a very helpful breaker from E30Zone who is helping me no end with spare parts, and trying to find the issue.
ICV might well be at fault, but I'm not convinced it could cause such a high idle. The important thing to remember is the idle is smooth, not lumpy at all, suggesting it's not an air leak, as I believe a massive air leak would cause crappy running.
We tried blocking various things up to see what does what, and the only way to bring the idle down was the block the ICV, and open the hole in the rubber boot between the AFM and the TB that the ICV was in. When we did that, the engine idle dropped, ran rough, then died.
Had a look at the AFM tonight, and it seems spanking new inside, all clean and looked fine. Same story with the Throttle Position Sensor, which was perfect inside, no gunk or crap which is commonly found in there.
Next step is sort the exhaust so I have adequate back pressure. Then go from there.
Last edited by a moderator:
So, the high idle is sorted!
It was the simplest, and most obvious thing it could have possibly been! I actually felt pretty stupid once I noticed it!
Anyway, I'll explain myself:
So I looked at the realOEM drawings for the brake booster vacuum hoses and followed them. Anyway the rubber boot I bought from BMW had an outlet on the right, which matched the drawings, so I hooked it up as per the drawing.
I've illustrated it below:
[url=https://flic.kr/p/nA2i8T]14168432057_35605a7a70_o by Eddie the Kid, on Flickr[/URL]
Blue line is air passing up the boot to the throttle body.
Purple is throttle body.
Red is air passing up the boot and through the ICV.
Yellow is air passing up the boot, through the brake booster hoses, and in behind the throttle body.
So obviously air was getting in, unmetered, causing the idle to shoot up. Such a simple mistake to make, but at least I've found it.
As a note, the injectors are spot on, and the various other sensors seem okay, although I want to do some more electrical tests.
Anyway, with the idle now at an acceptable level, we noticed that when the throttle was opened, there was some hesitation and slight misfiring, certainly didn't sound good. So we took the spark plugs out, and they looked like this:
Untitled by Eddie the Kid, on Flickr
So yeah, pretty disgusting, so I've already ordered some replacements in the form of some NGK's, which are recommended.
Hopefully that will get things sorted.
It was the simplest, and most obvious thing it could have possibly been! I actually felt pretty stupid once I noticed it!
Anyway, I'll explain myself:
So I looked at the realOEM drawings for the brake booster vacuum hoses and followed them. Anyway the rubber boot I bought from BMW had an outlet on the right, which matched the drawings, so I hooked it up as per the drawing.
I've illustrated it below:
Blue line is air passing up the boot to the throttle body.
Purple is throttle body.
Red is air passing up the boot and through the ICV.
Yellow is air passing up the boot, through the brake booster hoses, and in behind the throttle body.
So obviously air was getting in, unmetered, causing the idle to shoot up. Such a simple mistake to make, but at least I've found it.
As a note, the injectors are spot on, and the various other sensors seem okay, although I want to do some more electrical tests.
Anyway, with the idle now at an acceptable level, we noticed that when the throttle was opened, there was some hesitation and slight misfiring, certainly didn't sound good. So we took the spark plugs out, and they looked like this:
So yeah, pretty disgusting, so I've already ordered some replacements in the form of some NGK's, which are recommended.
Hopefully that will get things sorted.
Rob
ClioSport Moderator
Really really nice work northerner. Shame it's missing now, hope it is just the plugs!
Ive done very similar before, very easily done!
My information was bad, I did some digging and the injectors I had were correct, so I'm still not sure what was causing that buzzing noise from the injectors.
New spark plugs arrived today, so got them fitted, old on the left, new NGK's on the right:
Slightly different fitting on the connector, but it seems to be fine. Idles well and revs up as it should.
Slight issue with the idle dropping lower than normal when I drop the throttle all the way off. Idle drops down and coughs a touch, then comes back to normal idle. I'm sure I've read about this somewhere before, so it should hopefully be a straightforward fix.
Also went up to Topgear in Stockport to collect my new Y-pipe. This will collect the gases from the two 1.5" downpipes into one 2" pipe that will head off to the backbox.
Plenty to be cracking on with over the next few days and this weekend.
Slightly different fitting on the connector, but it seems to be fine. Idles well and revs up as it should.
Slight issue with the idle dropping lower than normal when I drop the throttle all the way off. Idle drops down and coughs a touch, then comes back to normal idle. I'm sure I've read about this somewhere before, so it should hopefully be a straightforward fix.
Also went up to Topgear in Stockport to collect my new Y-pipe. This will collect the gases from the two 1.5" downpipes into one 2" pipe that will head off to the backbox.
Plenty to be cracking on with over the next few days and this weekend.
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